Can Anyone Identify This Hat?

[HatDoc]

This is my first posting on FL, but I've been lurking and reading for awhile.

I found this hat when my Grandfather died in 1974. Never really wore it much until now. It needs some repair and restoration. It was obviously purchased at Robley in Atlanta, but not sure who actually made it.

I'm enclosing some photos. The insignia/logo on the sweat band is a Lion and a Unicorn, but there is no other name listed. Much of the gold foil has rubbed off. When you look at the logo, they stamped it twice, but it's supposed to be a single Lion and Unicorn. Does anyone recognize this logo? (See photos below)

Thanks in advance,

Randy

 

[Rick Blaine]

Hiya Randy,

Good to see ya' here. I grew up in Athens in the 7o's & 8o's & often think fondly of GA. I have no answer to your question, but I will say that is one lovely hat. Your G'father must've cut quite a figure, that's a pip. RBH is likely wiping the drool off his screen 'bout now!

Regards,

RB

 

[KY Gentleman]

I can't ID the hat though its a fine one. Welcome to the Lounge.
I lived in Macon for about 10 years and I have fond memories of Georgia, too.
(Except during basketball season! Go 'Cats!).
Seriously though, thats a nice hat.

 

[Woodfluter]

Hey HatDoc -

Welcome fellow Atlantan! Glad you showed up. What kept you?

As others said, looks like a good hat - seems to be of the Stetson Open Road type. The double stamping on the sweatband is peculiar. It appears they did the one to the left first, realized it wasn't centered properly because the top part was cut off, and then stamped it again a bit to the right but not far enough away to avoid superimposing the second lion on the first unicorn. This seems strangely haphazard and I wonder if the sweatband is really original to the hat. Maybe it was put there by someone who blocked and cleaned it at some point.

Try looking underneath the sweatband, lifting it carefully and replacing it as you go around the perimeter (looks a bit fragile so be gentle). You might find a sticker on the crown with a maker and model number, perhaps a date. Check the underside of the sweatband itself also.

You might want to use a very small amount of leather dressing such as Lexol or mink oil (paste) on the grain side (slick part) of the sweatband. Just rub a little bit in with your finger while being careful not to get any on the felt. Give it time to absorb and that could prevent some tearing.

It looks like it could be worth restoring, especially if it fit you! Good luck and let us know what you discover.

- Bill

P.S. Did a search for Robley Hats in Atlanta, and found links to the store (part of HatVantage), but none of the links worked. Seems both outfits may have died, perhaps in the past couple of years.

 

[DanielJones]

Looks like the company is still around, but I can't seem to connect to their web address. Maybe someone else can chime in and see if it is still accessible. I think it is now called HatVantage by Robley Hats, Inc.
http://hatvantage.com/

It appears to be their version of an Open Road clone. Nice green ribbon though, or is it black. It appears green on my monitor. [huh]

Cheers!

Dan

 

[HatDoc]

Welcome fellow Atlantan! Glad you showed up. What kept you?

Not sure.....just getting back in touch with my alter-ego, I guess.


As others said, looks like a good hat - seems to be of the Stetson Open Road type. The double stamping on the sweatband is peculiar. It appears they did the one to the left first, realized it wasn't centered properly because the top part was cut off, and then stamped it again a bit to the right but not far enough away to avoid superimposing the second lion on the first unicorn. This seems strangely haphazard and I wonder if the sweatband is really original to the hat. Maybe it was put there by someone who blocked and cleaned it at some point.

I agree with the double stamping scenario. Actually, the band is original, since it contains my Grandfather's initials.....very nice.

Try looking underneath the sweatband, lifting it carefully and replacing it as you go around the perimeter (looks a bit fragile so be gentle). You might find a sticker on the crown with a maker and model number, perhaps a date. Check the underside of the sweatband itself also.

Yes, I did that already....should've photographed it. There is a "re-order" number, but no maker's mark.

You might want to use a very small amount of leather dressing such as Lexol or mink oil (paste) on the grain side (slick part) of the sweatband. Just rub a little bit in with your finger while being careful not to get any on the felt. Give it time to absorb and that could prevent some tearing.

Thanks for the leather dressing tip.

It looks like it could be worth restoring, especially if it fit you! Good luck and let us know what you discover.

It fits great, with just a tad of padding in the band. The band has become un-sewn in the front, so I want to restore it. I talked with Art, but he's not doing it anymore. Optimo has been recommended....do you agree? I just want to re-sew the original band and re-block it. Will that add some firmness to the felt? The snap brim kinda un-snaps while wearing it sometimes, but otherwise I wouldn't want to change a thing.

- Bill

P.S. Did a search for Robley Hats in Atlanta, and found links to the store (part of HatVantage), but none of the links worked. Seems both outfits may have died, perhaps in the past couple of years.

Yeah, I tried searching as well and reached a dead-end.

Thanks to everyone for their help.

Randy

 

[HatDoc]

Looks like the company is still around, but I can't seem to connect to their web address. Maybe someone else can chime in and see if it is still accessible. I think it is now called HatVantage by Robley Hats, Inc.
http://hatvantage.com/

It appears to be their version of an Open Road clone. Nice green ribbon though, or is it black. It appears green on my monitor. [huh]

Cheers!

Dan

Dan,

I think you are probably right.....an Open Road clone. But do you really think a local hatter would have a logo? Art thought it might be a Lion hat, but their logo is 2 lions (sans unicorn).

The ribbon is green to match the border, and is original.

Thanks for the shout.

Randy

 

[HatDoc]

Hey HatDoc -

Welcome fellow Atlantan! Glad you showed up. What kept you?

As others said, looks like a good hat - seems to be of the Stetson Open Road type. The double stamping on the sweatband is peculiar. It appears they did the one to the left first, realized it wasn't centered properly because the top part was cut off, and then stamped it again a bit to the right but not far enough away to avoid superimposing the second lion on the first unicorn. This seems strangely haphazard and I wonder if the sweatband is really original to the hat. Maybe it was put there by someone who blocked and cleaned it at some point.

Try looking underneath the sweatband, lifting it carefully and replacing it as you go around the perimeter (looks a bit fragile so be gentle). You might find a sticker on the crown with a maker and model number, perhaps a date. Check the underside of the sweatband itself also.

You might want to use a very small amount of leather dressing such as Lexol or mink oil (paste) on the grain side (slick part) of the sweatband. Just rub a little bit in with your finger while being careful not to get any on the felt. Give it time to absorb and that could prevent some tearing.

It looks like it could be worth restoring, especially if it fit you! Good luck and let us know what you discover.

- Bill

P.S. Did a search for Robley Hats in Atlanta, and found links to the store (part of HatVantage), but none of the links worked. Seems both outfits may have died, perhaps in the past couple of years.

Bill,

I just had a thought about my previous comment about "stiffening the felt". If this is indeed an Open Road clone.....are they an open crown hat? Being a newbie, I'm still learning....but is an open crown designed so that the owner can shape at will, and is inherently less "stiff"? Before I started looking for vintage lids, I bought 2 new Stetson Saxon models. The felt and shape is much stiffer than my Grandfather's hat, but I just chalked that up to age. Could it be that it's actually an open crown and designed that way? How can I be sure of this?

Thanks,

Randy

 

[Tangoman]

Well I recognise the coat of arms, they are those of the United Kingdom. The motto 'Honi soit qui mal y pense' is that of the Order of the Garter from the old French, meaning "shame upon him who thinks evil upon it". Quite usually the coat of arms would also have the motto of the royal family 'Dieu et mon droit', "God is my right". What it is doing on a hatband in Atlanta I have no idea.

 

[HatDoc]

Well I recognise the coat of arms, they are those of the United Kingdom. The motto 'Honi soit qui mal y pense' is that of the Order of the Garter from the old French, meaning "shame upon him who thinks evil upon it". Quite usually the coat of arms would also have the motto of the royal family 'Dieu et mon droit', "God is my right". What it is doing on a hatband in Atlanta I have no idea.

Thank you very much, Tangoman !!!!! It's amazing how those of us on this side of the pond can be so ignorant of things British.

For others of you reading this, here's a nice link with a detailed explanation:
http://www.royal.gov.uk/output/Page5014.asp

So.....I think we're on the right track for identification of the hat. Now we just need to find out which vintage hats were made in the UK and placed the Coat of Arms on the sweatband.

Anyone?

 

[Woodfluter]

Bill,

I just had a thought about my previous comment about "stiffening the felt". If this is indeed an Open Road clone.....are they an open crown hat? Being a newbie, I'm still learning....but is an open crown designed so that the owner can shape at will, and is inherently less "stiff"? Before I started looking for vintage lids, I bought 2 new Stetson Saxon models. The felt and shape is much stiffer than my Grandfather's hat, but I just chalked that up to age. Could it be that it's actually an open crown and designed that way? How can I be sure of this?

Thanks,

Randy

Randy -

As far as I know, which ain't far, ORs were pre-shaped.

Others may comment, but I don't think open crown hats are inherently less or more stiff than those that have been pre-shaped. However, some or many of the more recent hats are, I suspect, rather more stiff than the older ones. Again, I'm not certain of the reason but it may have something to do with the quality of the felt and some attempt to compensate. Vintage hats that I have known or that live with me often feel substantial and yet are pliable, easily reshaped but with memory that lets them recover their previous shape after crushing. Hard to explain. I think a lot of newer felts might be good but aren't quite of that quality, so they add stiffener to help them keep their shape. But it varies even with older hats.

Hope others here will have some ideas based on their more extensive experience.

- Bill

 

[AlanC]

Great hat with a venerable family provenance.

We really do need to start a Grandfather's Hat club/thread. We've certainly got enough around here to do it.



fftopic:

(Except during basketball season! Go 'Cats!).

Good man--Go Big Blue!

 

[RPeers]

I found a Unicorn

Found this somewhere :whistling: Thought it might help your research...

The size tag says 7 1/8, and the gold-embossed brown leather sweatband bears the following imprints: “Bertmon’s Brooklyn”; and “Beaver De Luxe”. The imprint under the plastic is a crest and says: “ Exclusive Style Bertmon’s Brooklyn; Beaver De Luxe”.

 

[HatDoc]

Found this somewhere :whistling: Thought it might help your research...

“ Exclusive Style Bertmon’s Brooklyn; Beaver De Luxe”.

Hmmm. Interesting. Where did you get this photo?

 

[HatDoc]

Scott's Hat

Here's another possibility....a Scott & Co hat that I just missed on eBay:

I doubt my GF's hat was made in England, though. But the Scott DOES have the coat of arms.

In any event, a REAL nice lid.

 

[HatDoc]

Probably a Champ.

For those of you who might still be interested:

I thought it might probably be a private-label from Champ.

I ran across the Champ logo and it has the coat of arms on it. But, alas, the logos vary too much. (See photo below.)

So.....I'm still on the hunt.

(Thanks to Taggert and his Great-Grandfather for the photo.)

Randy

 

[Tango Yankee]

As far as I know, which ain't far, ORs were pre-shaped.

Just FYI, I have an open crown OR. I believe that older ones came open crown, newer ones already blocked.

Re: The hatvantage.com link, I did an nslookup on it and got back an IP address, but pinging that address results in request time outs. The site is down. Of course, I've no way of knowing if that's permanent or not.

HatDoc, it's very cool that you have your grandfather's hat! I'm sure he'd be proud to know that you appreciate hats and will be wearing his.

Regards,
Tom

 

[Woodfluter]

Tango Yankee, thanks for the info. I didn't know that but given the time range, open crown for earlier ORs makes perfect sense.

HatDoc, you are correct, there's a significant difference in the stamping vs the Champ logo. But good detective work! No crown (it seems) on the Champ lion for example, plus the difference in stances and proportions. The English lion and unicorn was used pretty widely I think on this side of the Atlantic to add a certain...cachet...to various products. In England, based on the products I've seen, it mostly or solely appears in connection with "by appointment to HMS..." which is something entirely different from what appears double-stampted on your sweatband.

I'm inclined to think that somebody had a lion and unicorn stamp and some gold foil, and was playing around, testing it, and somehow it got made into the sweatband for this hat. Perhaps because the leather was too good to waste. Dunno.

- Bill

 

[HatDoc]

Tango Yankee, thanks for the info. I didn't know that but given the time range, open crown for earlier ORs makes perfect sense.

HatDoc, you are correct, there's a significant difference in the stamping vs the Champ logo. But good detective work! No crown (it seems) on the Champ lion for example, plus the difference in stances and proportions. The English lion and unicorn was used pretty widely I think on this side of the Atlantic to add a certain...cachet...to various products. In England, based on the products I've seen, it mostly or solely appears in connection with "by appointment to HMS..." which is something entirely different from what appears double-stampted on your sweatband.

I'm inclined to think that somebody had a lion and unicorn stamp and some gold foil, and was playing around, testing it, and somehow it got made into the sweatband for this hat. Perhaps because the leather was too good to waste. Dunno.

- Bill

Bill,

You may be right. I didn't know that the British Coat of Arms was used so much on US products until I started my research. Did some of the hatmakers make "private label" hats for some of the local hat shops? i.e. did they send unlabeled hats to local hat shops, who then put THEIR brand name on them? If so, that could be what happened here.....Robley with some gold foil and a BCOA stamp. But who knows.....Robley could've made their own hats from scratch. Guess I'll never know, since they are out of business now.

Thanks for your comments.

Randy

 

[Monte]

Hello everyone, I don't really know how I found this group of hat fans or this conversation from 4 years ago. However, I do own a hat with that logo on the inner fabric of the crown...pardon my lack of knowledge of all hat terminology. I would love to resurrect this old conversation if anyone cares to reply. If no answers come, I will try to post this differently later on.