Buzz Aldrin Strikes Back!

[kiwilrdg]

If we are going to say that he worked on the "taxpayer's dime" perhaps we should also say that everyone who ever had a college loan, or ever worked for a company that sold anything to any government agency or institution, or any medical personnel that treated anyone who is covered by the VA or Champus (Tricare).

If someone is a civil servant their duties extend to the point that their job is involved. A member of the military cannot use military uniform or titles in supporting causes but they still have freedom of speech. It is a tough call anyway because it is hard to tell where duty as a citizen ends and where duty as an employee begins.
Using aggressive action to stop repeated verbal assaults from someone who appears to be stalking was a risk that was taken and the court did not determine that it was not legal. I do not think that the civil rights of a former astonaut should be stripped away. He is innocent until proven guilty under the same standards as the rest of us.

It must have been a heated moment for all involved. I think it is good that Mr Sibrel later did give a written apology. It appears that they got over their differences and just disagree now.

 

[ButteMT61]

Lots of people legitimately feel the moon landing (amongst other historic events) was fake. I don't care in the least that someone(s) think that - it's good to question things. As far as I know, none of the people I have listened to or read about felt the need to stalk one of the parties involved. Disagree and research to your heart's content. But understand that there's a limit to what any human can take. I imagine doing the same to a returning soldier from active duty in a war-zone would get you the same response. And I'd say I wouldn't blame them...

 

[LizzieMaine]

The right of free speech means one can say or believe anything they want to say or believe. But it doesn't mean anyone is required to listen.

 

[gtdean48]

USAF pilots are trained military personnel. I'd expect any & every one of them to respond accordingly to being hounded & called a "liar & a thief" as witnessed in this video. I'd expect it of any man with honor, dignity & character. If just because he went to the moon & returned safely to earth, he is suppose to forgo his core beliefs, I disagree. In earlier days, this would've called for a duel at dawn. A crack in the jaw is well justified. Or do you expect Buzz to cease being a man?

 

[kiwilrdg]

USAF pilots are trained military personnel. I'd expect any & every one of them to respond accordingly to being hounded & called a "liar & a thief" as witnessed in this video. I'd expect it of any man with honor, dignity & character. If just because he went to the moon & returned safely to earth, he is suppose to forgo his core beliefs, I disagree. In earlier days, this would've called for a duel at dawn. A crack in the jaw is well justified. Or do you expect Buzz to cease being a man?

Society today has changed a great deal. Fighting the good fight and standing up for what you believe in is being replaced by sharing your feelings and understanding another way of looking at things.

Today, to be a man is to be an anachronism.

 

[DesertDan]

Then I shall be an anachronism and damn the consequences.

 

[ButteMT61]

Then I shall be an anachronism and damn the consequences.

X2. Amen.

 

[kiwilrdg]

I would rather be proud and outdated than to need to live with myself if I changed.

 

[Undertow]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems two seperate issues are being discussed here.

1. No one is above the law, regardless of title or pedigree.
2. Harrassing someone, stalking them, getting into their personal space, verbally abusing them, etc. is unacceptable and a reasonable person might react with violence.

This has nothing to do with beating one's chest and being masculine. It has nothing to do with being a "hero". It has nothing to do with beating up on federal/state employees. It has nothing to do with what being a man used to be, or the state of our society.

If you punch someone, the police should inquire. If they find the situation to be worth trial, they should hand you over to the judge. The judge should weigh the evidence and sentence you or throw out the case as he/she sees fit.

If you stalk someone, and hound them, and insult them, and do everything you can to be a pest, you may receive a violent reaction. And you should expect that when a judge/police officer reviews the evidence, they may be lenient on the attacker.

Seems like a non-issue. It's common sense on both sides. [huh]

 

[kiwilrdg]

Seems like a non-issue. It's common sense on both sides.

:eusa_clap:eusa_clap:eusa_clap:eusa_clap:eusa_clap

 

[Deco-Doll-1928]

Let me step in as Devil's advocate here.

When you're growing up, your teachers tell you that our buddy Chris Columbus came through, discovered a godless piece of rock we call America, straightened out a bunch of simpering savages, and was a hero to us all. We don't learn about murder, slavery, disease, and a more or less complete disregard for the lives of an indigenous people who were doing quite well by themselves, etc. Historians, intellectuals and scholars can spend years going round and round as to what we should teach our children, but the fact remains that history belongs to the conquerors.

Now consider that as the years have progressed, and these "lunatics*" are doggedly researching various topics, they claim to have found information that changes history as we know it. It's all conspiracy theory, of course, because the modern mass media find very little incentive in investigating these things.

For instance, through the Wikileaks scandal, we found out that the US had good reason to believe there were WMDs in Iraq - we sold them to Saddam. We had the receipts. We knew exactly what chemicals he had. Boy, that doesn't look too good on our behalf does it?

Or we find out through the investigation of projects like MK Ultra, etc, that leaders of the Black Panther movement were assassinated in their homes by men either employed by, or dressed as police officers. Yikes, what happened to life and liberty there?

Or it's revealed during trial that the city of Memphis was most likely complicit in the murder of MLK, and that there were all sorts of questionable circumstances (sniper teams, government agents, etc) present. So we ask...

Why should we believe the official story? Thus, some people question.

I'm not claiming to believe the "conspiracy theories", but I certainly support people doing their own investigation, holding their own "crackpot" beliefs, speaking freely, and such. History, especially American history, is very complicated. I'm not trying to change anyone's mind but you have to know that history deserves investigating. [huh]

*(sorry, couldn't help a moon pun)

I'm all for people questioning things and thinking for themselves. After all I took a Critical Thinking course when I was in college. So I understand about not accepting things at face value (or reading between the lines). I'm sure much of history has been sugar coated. For me personally (I can only speak for myself), denying the lunar landing doesn't make any sense. Not only would it have been really expensive to do, but very risky. This is why originally the space program sent up animals because they were sure how space would affect humans (now can you imagine putting all that risk all for a hoax?). I've heard people complaining about the flag (here's an interesting website talking about the flag http://www.universetoday.com/19932/flag-on-the-moon/). I've heard complaining about why there are no stars (it's a issue with photographic exposure--- http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20090716045659AA5wP6o).

-----

Undertow, I hope that you don't think of this as an attack. I understand your opinion and agree with it. Again, like I said before, I can only speak for myself. The opinions I gave above is why I don't agree with the conspiracy theorists. To what I have been taught and what information has been presented to me, denying the lunar landing makes no logical sense. Part of it might be that I am taking this a bit personal. I grew up reading about space and always imagined myself going to space. As a kid (even though I didn't live during that time), I was so amazed by those images of Neil Armstrong and Buzz Aldrin on the moon.

I am concerned that, especially by the younger generation, that it seems fashionable to deny anything the government says or does. Hearing young people be so cynical and negative about anything makes me very sad.

Plus, I don't mind your moon pun. lol

 

[Undertow]

I am concerned that, especially by the younger generation, that it seems fashionable to deny anything the government says or does. Hearing young people be so cynical and negative about anything makes me very sad...

I am also concerned but perhaps not for the same reason.

If kids are being cynical to fit a fashion, then it's a shame. Being cynical for its own sake only sours the pot.

I have one question though. Why does it seem like so many people are questioning every little story the US government produces? It seems there are conspiracy theories for nearly every official account. What does that say about our society and our leaders?

 

[LizzieMaine]

If you're obsessively questioning every *little* thing, you aren't bothering to question the *big* things. Internet/talk-radio propeller-heads who construct elaborate fantasy scenarios about fake moon landings are never going to be a real threat to the powers-that-be, so why not humor them? Why not even encourage them into thinking they're bold and fearless rebels against the status quo when all they're really doing is play-acting? It keeps them busy, makes them feel like they have a holy mission, and it keeps them out of the hair of the people who really run the show.

 

[Undertow]

If you're obsessively questioning every *little* thing, you aren't bothering to question the *big* things. Internet/talk-radio propeller-heads who construct elaborate fantasy scenarios about fake moon landings are never going to be a real threat to the powers-that-be, so why not humor them? Why not even encourage them into thinking they're bold and fearless rebels against the status quo when all they're really doing is play-acting? It keeps them busy, makes them feel like they have a holy mission, and it keeps them out of the hair of the people who really run the show.

Ain't that the truth?

While very bright minds waste time on the minutea of some, more or less, useless conspiracy (I mean really, even if the moon landing were faked, who cares), there are some very insidious events taking place all around us, every day.

It reminds me of the people worried about Area 51. So let me get this straight...there's a secret military base in the US that creates and tests top secret technology for warfare? And they keep it so secret that any old Tom, Dick, or Harry can't take pictures from the surrounding hills? And some of the technology doesn't look familiar or is mistaken as a "UFO"?

[shudder][gasp] What ARE they doing with our tax money?!

 

[Talbot]

If you're obsessively questioning every *little* thing, you aren't bothering to question the *big* things. Internet/talk-radio propeller-heads who construct elaborate fantasy scenarios about fake moon landings are never going to be a real threat to the powers-that-be, so why not humor them? Why not even encourage them into thinking they're bold and fearless rebels against the status quo when all they're really doing is play-acting? It keeps them busy, makes them feel like they have a holy mission, and it keeps them out of the hair of the people who really run the show.

Sounds like a plan, but they are a nuisance. Isn't it how this thread started - one of these guys seeking to raise his profile?

 

[ButteMT61]

Sounds like a plan, but they are a nuisance. Isn't it how this thread started - one of these guys seeking to raise his profile?

It's tough once sunlight hits your face when you've lived in your parent's basement until your 30's. When you face a real human, you don't know how to interact. Buzz showed him. That's the problem. People don't see people, they see their keyboards. And Cheetos. And Coke. Bad combo lol

 

[W4ASZ]

... People don't see people, they see their keyboards. And Cheetos. And Coke. Bad combo lol

Eloquently stated ! :eusa_clap :eusa_clap :eusa_clap

 

[kiwilrdg]

The problem with the conspiracy theory fanatics is that they do not properly investigate the conspiracies. If they asked sincere questions in a respectful way they might uncover something else when they look at the answers to the questions. Roswell and Area 51 are good examples of what I mean. It is really pretty amazing how much information can be worked out from the government statements if they are looked at without trying to force any theory into them. The government is not that good at really keeping secrets. Usually the secrets are just partially declassified and everyone forgets about them. Ever hear about the secret bunkers for the government in case of attack lately?

 

[Talbot]

Every now and then I have to remind myself that a lot of these nut jobs don't have the equipment to properly consider alternative views. Kinda like my dog not being able to sing like Caruso.

 

[Edward]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems two seperate issues are being discussed here.

1. No one is above the law, regardless of title or pedigree.
2. Harrassing someone, stalking them, getting into their personal space, verbally abusing them, etc. is unacceptable and a reasonable person might react with violence.

This has nothing to do with beating one's chest and being masculine. It has nothing to do with being a "hero". It has nothing to do with beating up on federal/state employees. It has nothing to do with what being a man used to be, or the state of our society.

If you punch someone, the police should inquire. If they find the situation to be worth trial, they should hand you over to the judge. The judge should weigh the evidence and sentence you or throw out the case as he/she sees fit.

If you stalk someone, and hound them, and insult them, and do everything you can to be a pest, you may receive a violent reaction. And you should expect that when a judge/police officer reviews the evidence, they may be lenient on the attacker.

Seems like a non-issue. It's common sense on both sides. [huh]

Quite. The chest-beating, self-professed "real man" alpha-male types are every bit as tedious and absurd as that which they profess to oppose. Perhaps moreso, given the increased emphasis on looking for applause for so doing.