Brunswick panatrope

[LizzieMaine]

Those early Electrola arms were also counterweighted -- there's a big iron slug bolted into the back of the arm behind the pivot. I'd guess the actual weight of the arm is a pound or so without the counterweight.

The recommended tracking weight for transcriptions in radio studios in the thirties was two ounces, which is still a lot of grams.

 

[martinsantos]

I understand he is talking about the efective weight ("playing weight"), quoting his own book from 1929, "Modern Gramophones". And comparing with the situation when the actual book was printed, 1957: "nowadays, the more usual playing wheight is 7 to 10 grm..." He puts in this big weight the responsability about worn records played in gramophones. A lot of folks nowadays disagree, but in doubt I prefer only to play in low weight arms (usually in a Philips from 1964, with tubes. Great sound, precise playing and correct needle).

That would be the whole tonearm, no?

5oz works out to about 140g. Today's tonearms - which are counterweighted - put a force of less than 5g on the disc surface.

 

[vitanola]

That would be the whole tonearm, no?

5oz works out to about 140g. Today's tonearms - which are counterweighted - put a force of less than 5g on the disc surface.

No, needle point pressure was reccomended to be about 5 1/2 oz on an acoustic machine. Remember that the needle arm compliance of these macines was
rather low. The weight was necessary to keep the needle from riding up in the groove during loud passages and slipping, or at least wearing the groove walls where they were thinnest.

Remember that a steel needle wears to fit the groove. After a revolution or two the copntact area of the needle point is a couple of orders of magitude greater than would be the contact area of a similar permanant stylus, and so the strain on the groove walls is not as great as one would ordinarily expect. The contact pressure in POUNDS PER SQUARE INCH of s new steel needle following the grooves of a record is a tiny tiny fracton of that of a jeweledpoint used in the same machine. A jeweled stylus chucked into the reproducer of a 1920's machine can ruin a disc in a siongle plying.

 

[vitanola]

I understand he is talking about the efective weight ("playing weight"), quoting his own book from 1929, "Modern Gramophones". And comparing with the situation when the actual book was printed, 1957: "nowadays, the more usual playing wheight is 7 to 10 grm..." He puts in this big weight the responsability about worn records played in gramophones. A lot of folks nowadays disagree, but in doubt I prefer only to play in low weight arms (usually in a Philips from 1964, with tubes. Great sound, precise playing and correct needle).

Correct needle?

Which one, the 2.5 mil conical NAB, the 3 mil conical, the 3.2 mil truncated eliptical, the 4.2 mil truncated conical...

The grooves of the early discs vary so much in their shape that one needs a gaggle of styli to play them and eliminate swish, hiss, and whistles. I find it less troublesome
to use a steelor fiber needle on a good mchine with excellent needle point alignment. This keeps wear down to a negligable level on my relatively common discs. For true rariies I use Cacti
needles in a counterbalanced Astatic crystal arm, tracking at two ounces, and for transcriptions and post-war discs I rely on a WStern Electric 9A

 

[martinsantos]

Vitanola,

I never went to such degree of refinement about having several different needles to play records in a 60s or 50s player. And, in fact, I never saw different saphire needles for 78s to choose. I just find the needle by the cartridge model.

With the few really rare 78s I own I prefer to make open reel transcriptions. More dangerous than the worn by needles is the risk to break it...

Funny about cactus needles. A friend says that better than steel needles is orange needle.

 

[MissMittens]

The common misconception with accoustic 78 machines is that the records wear down by playing. While technically true, the records have an abrasive compound which is meant to wear the needle before the record sustains wear, which is why you're supposed to play each song with a new needle. The electric recordings aren't made that way, and that's why they shouldn't be played on a steel needle machine. However, you can play them with a cactus needle or other fiber based needles just fine, as long as you adhere to the "use once and discard" mantra

 

[RetroToday]

... However, you can play them with a cactus needle or other fiber based needles just fine, as long as you adhere to the "use once and discard" mantra

No, it would be a big waste to discard a fibre needle after every play, you can keep cutting it down to a new point until it is too small to use.

I don't know about the cactus ones, haven't used them yet.

 

[LizzieMaine]

The thing with acoustic machines is that the rubber parts in the reproducer need to be soft and supple for it not to wear the record -- if they're hard and dry, the needle will be more rigid than it should be, the sound will be weaker, and it'll scrape the groove as it passes thru rather than properly following its vibrations. A Victrola reproducer that's been around eighty or ninety years without this bit of necessary maintenance is going to damage records no matter how the needles are used. Get it rebuilt and you'll have no problems.

Abrasive compounds were still being used in records into the 1940s -- they didn't go out of use until jeweled needles became popular after the war. The problem with playing electrical records on an acoustic machine is that they have too much bass response for the reproducer to handle, and this leads to extra wear. You can play *early* electrical records on a late-acoustic machine like an Orthophonic Victrola without problems, but earlier machines aren't a good idea.

 

[MissMittens]

The thing with acoustic machines is that the rubber parts in the reproducer need to be soft and supple for it not to wear the record -- if they're hard and dry, the needle will be more rigid than it should be, the sound will be weaker, and it'll scrape the groove as it passes thru rather than properly following its vibrations. A Victrola reproducer that's been around eighty or ninety years without this bit of necessary maintenance is going to damage records no matter how the needles are used. Get it rebuilt and you'll have no problems.

You're completely right again

I did mine recently. Rebuilt both my Exhibition soundbox, and the No. 2 soundbox with neoprene replacement gaskets. Of course, I didn't forget real beeswax for sealing the needle bar to mica screw. Made a huge difference in audio quality too. If you haven't heard a Victrola setup correctly, you really haven't heard a Victrola, as I found out. Getting the correct tension on the needle though took a lot of trial and error, and a 78 I decided I didn't like in order to sacrifice :lol: :lol:

 

[martinsantos]

This remember me about a Pilot radio/turntable I got several years ago. The cartridge used steel needles, but the rubber was hard as a stone. The cartridge was a low quality, so the two replacement pieces (the coil was damaged) I found were too with hard rubber. Never discovered a way to change the rubber, as the whole piece is impossible to open without destroying it. Rubber is probably the first thing to be in trouble. But other rubber parts are easy to make new (there is a guy here that make his living putting new rubber in old tapes, turntables, etc, pieces).