British Leather flight jackets?

[jamespibworth@n]

When I think of American leather flight jackets so many come to mind:

A1,A2,G1, B3 etc.

When I think of British leather flight jackets I can only think of one. Although arguably the most iconic, the Irvin.

Any thoughts on why this is? Or am I missing some?

Thanks

James.

 

[Smithy]

James, I am sure either of the Andrews will be able to explain this with far more accuracy but it is my understanding that the leather flying jacket within the RAF became largely defunct upon the completion of WWII, hence there are no official post-war flying kit models. Prior to the arrival of the Irvin, there were the WWI style flying coats of which arguably the Burberry models are the most famous and desired by aircrew. Between these periods the Irvin ruled the roost.

EDIT: I should also add, the Sidcot suit in all its patterns was also extremely popular and perhaps the Air Ministry decided that because there was already the Sidcot and Irvin suits there was no real need to develop other new designs (especially of leather flying jackets) during the 30s and 40s.

 

[Hawk_Eye]

Ive wondered this too. The Americans had a wide variety of jackets ranging from light, medium and heavy weight, for a variety of different uses. While the Brits only had the heavyweight Irvin (and Sidcot if you want to count that). No light or medium weight jackets. Perhaps they felt when an Irvin wasnt warranted, a service dress tunic, battledress tunic, or sweater would provide the same effect as a light jacket?

 

[Smithy]

Perhaps they felt when an Irvin wasnt warranted, a service dress tunic, battledress tunic, or sweater would provide the same effect as a light jacket?

That's probably the thing. Remember that SD and BD are fairly heavy weight materials (barathea, serge) which are fairly warmish especially when teamed with jumpers, thermal underwear, etc.

 

[Longshanks]

When I think of British leather flight jackets I can only think of one. Although arguably the most iconic, the Irvin.

Not that I was around back then...but I saw "The Battle of Britain" with Michael Caine and Trevor Howard, from 1969, and just bought the DVD (in annoying "anamorphic"--i.e. not quite right--screen width where the Hurricanes look like squashed flying golf carts...but perhaps I digress from the thread?) and the RAF seemed quite keen on flying in the wool battledress--after all, it's warm, fits, has pockets, and so forth. On the wisdom of using wool in flammable aircraft, I did read that in modern British submarines, wool treated to be flame-retardant is used in firefighting suits, so maybe not as bad as it might seem.
Longshanks

 

[Edward]

I've always been told that wool is much less flammable than most fabrics (especially mana-made ones). [huh]

I think you're onto something with the battledress, though. Bearing in mind that the USAAF boys had only the uniform shirt under their jackets, and wore different jackets, rather than layers, to provide the heat mostly. At least, according to the old photos I've seen, anyhow.

I do wonder, though, why the RAF didn't develop an alternative to the Irvin for the cramped cockpit of a Spitfire; maybe Irvins were just less bulky than a B3?

Who was first to go over to synthetics - the USAAF (with the B10) or the RAF?

Possibly another factor might have been the fact that Britain was more directly affected by the war than the US for longer -not only being involved much earlier, but also subject to direct attack... Was the US therefore able to turn more attention to such matters on the home front because it was less of a "front" in that sense?

 

[Flieger]

Sorry if this does not belong here but in my mind it's a logical follow-up question: Did any country(s) beside US and UK develop and use any form of "official" leather jacket for their pilots?

/F

 

[Spitfire]

Here are some early examples of ads for flying equipment from WWI period.
Please enjoy.

 

[Edward]

Sorry if this does not belong here but in my mind it's a logical follow-up question: Did any country(s) beside US and UK develop and use any form of "official" leather jacket for their pilots?

/F

Later in the war the Luftwaffe had a sheepskin similar to the Irvin, which as I understand it was issued. Prior to that, their leathers were all private purchase, though. Canadians and Australians of course had Irvins, being colonies of the still-extant British Empire at that point.

 

[Flieger]

Later in the war the Luftwaffe had a sheepskin similar to the Irvin, which as I understand it was issued. Prior to that, their leathers were all private purchase, though. Canadians and Australians of course had Irvins, being colonies of the still-extant British Empire at that point.

Thanks Edward. I knew about those but how about France, Italy, Russia and Japan? They all had loads of aircraft and pilots.

/F

 

[Baron Kurtz]

Spitfire, those are great ads. I love the description "carapace". There couldn't be a better word to describe these suits.

bk

 

[Smithy]

Wonderful ads Spitfire. I think I mentioned in another thread that the Burberry flying coats such as the Bufron were arguably the most sort after by British aircrew in the RFC/RNAS/RAF. The introduction of the Sidcot suit in 1917 would've put paid to military use of that carapace suit.

I do wonder, though, why the RAF didn't develop an alternative to the Irvin for the cramped cockpit of a Spitfire; maybe Irvins were just less bulky than a B3?

Edward, I just don't think the Air Ministry deemed it necessary or a prudent use of resources. With the widespread replacement of BD instead of SD fighter pilots were wearing this with layers of clothing, in fact it's quite difficult to find photos of fighter pilots wearing Irvins for flying (not when on the ground) after 1941.

You can't really count it as RAF issue but the two Norwegian squadrons in Fighter Command, 331 and 332, used American A-2s, they were issued to them in Canada at "Little Norway" where they undertook their training. This is the only example of an RAF administered squadron using A-2s to my knowledge.

 

[Windsock]

I've always been told that wool is much less flammable than most fabrics (especially mana-made ones). [huh]


I do wonder, though, why the RAF didn't develop an alternative to the Irvin for the cramped cockpit of a Spitfire; maybe Irvins were just less bulky than a B3?

Lots of good comments don't think I can add much for now.

My understanding is that wool suits were pretty good in terms of fireproofing- hence the reason Firies (that's Firemen here) wore heavy wool jackets.

Regarding the cramped Spit cockpit, Edward you've just given me an excuse to post a favourite shot of mine- that being when I tried out a Spit for size wearing a 1938 Irvin a few months ago. I'm 6'2" and it was cosy but not impossible. If only I could make it fly....

I was actually happy.

 

[Windsock]

I meant to add- I posted a while ago that a Friend of mine who was based at Dallachy flying Beaus in '44/'45 could not recognize the Irvins I showed him a while ago. I was really surprised as I naiively thought that they'd have been standard for those crews. His explanation was that the aircraft were heated so you didn't need anything bulky- just the battledress, and when on the ground they wore a Greatcoat if it was cold.

I have since seen a few shots of 455 Sq crewmwmbers wearing the odd Irvin or Irvin waistcoat.
Here's a shot of an Irvin waistcoat I used to own lying on top of an Irvin...

 

[aswatland]

There have already been some very perceptive replies to the original question and I can't add much. My view is that there was no need to develop an alternative to the Irvin as pilots and aircrew had the Sidcot suit (and later heated suits) and the no 1 uniform which was worn before the introduction of the service blouse, plus the knitted jumper. These were seen quite adequate by the top brass. I'm not sure all RAF pilots necessarily agreed with this view. There are pictures of RAF pilots wearing A2s, so they were regarded by some as a stylish additional layer worn over the no 1 uniform jacket.

 

[jamespibworth@n]

Thanks for all your replies.

I think that my question is well and truly answered.

I wonder what the RAF equivalent to the A2 would have looked like.

I can see why we are not wearing Carapace suits today!!
But the Burfrom – perhaps?

Cheerio

James.

 

[H.Johnson]

There are photographs of ground crew wearing a sheepskin jacket that is clearly not an Irvin, although I have never seen it established definitively that the photographs are wartime or early post-war.

I have handled similar jackets that have civilian Dot zips, so I suspect they were private purchase, so I guess they don't count.

 

[Spitfire]

Sorry if this does not belong here but in my mind it's a logical follow-up question: Did any country(s) beside US and UK develop and use any form of "official" leather jacket for their pilots?

/F

After a little searching around I found this pic of an Italian airforcecrew:

Not exactly Prada design!

 

[Flieger]

Thank you Spitfire. I really needed that laugh today.

Seriously though - What the heck is that? A FLAK-west of some kind? The jacket underneath looks interesting though.

/F

 

[PADDY]

Looks like...

The Kapok style life vests, as often seen (in just a slightly different shape) on Luftwaffe aircrew.