Brim Treatment

[dopey]

I have posted this question, in a slightly modified form elsewhere, but I think it belongs here as well.

I have come across some posts indicating that the origin of many edge treatments such as self welting or ribbon binding results from a decline in felt quality or thickness. The edge treatment was needed to compensate for the lack of body that resulted from using thinner (and perhaps poorer quality feltes) during war-time and then just to save money. Whether that is true or not, it seems that bound or welted edges have become expected in a dress hat.

After the loss of one of my dress hats (gifted to my dad) I have begun hat shopping again. I was quickly convinced that modern hats are not what they used to be and I needed to look at vintage. True or not, I decided to hit e-bay and bought about 18 hats. All have some edge treatment. One treatment I have not seen in my vintage hats, but which was on the Borsalino I gave away, is decorative whip-stiching. I appreciate the variety of edge-treatments I have come across and think they all have their place and affect the appearance of a hat differently. Whip-stitching is much less formal, to my eye, than a ribbon bound edge, and seems to be a nice touch. Do others like it? Have they seen it much? That Borsalino (not vintage) was the only one I had seen like it.

Of the various treatments I have seen, I have to say that I like the Cavanagh-type edge best because of its purity - you get a nicely finished edge with no material other than felt and no stitching. I do not like most sewn welts I have seen as they look unfinished; underwelts, though look better than overwelts to me. My ideal would be a felted self welt that is equally spaced between being an overwelt and an underwelt. I have never seen that, though. Next would be a felted edge that is an underwelt. The actual Cavanagh Edge and Knox Guild Edge, which are overwelts, are my third choice, but still better than sewn self-welts.

I prefer thin ribbon bindings to wider ones, but a wide binding in a nice complementary color can look fantastic.

I am also perfectly comfortable with a dress hat having no edge treatment.


What do you all think?

Anyone seen any edge option I haven’t mentioned?

Regards to all.

 

[Matt Deckard]

The idea that edge treatments became more common because felt became thinner is false.

Felts have always had varying thicknesses and putting a binding on an edge, or a welt regardless of thickness has been used for decoration or to ad more stoutness to the brim. They had bound edge brims in the tricorn hat days and they had bound edge brims on the Boss of the plains hats made by Stetson in the 1800's. The Self felted edge came in later and was a spiffy innovation that was costly and is found on better made hats, many that are already thick stout felts.

Thickness and thinness of felt is not a determiner of quality. I have thin thin hats that take better to the elements than thicker hats in my closet.

It is all about the makeup of the felt. The right beaver or the right blend can make all the difference.

Don't run away from the bound hats, quite often they were the ones on the high priced section.

 

[ScottFree]

I am sure that edge treatments did add both decorative and functional aspects to hats but I am not a hat expert like Matt but am a collector. I agree with Matt that it was not the thinner felt that prompted the edging so much as it was that thinner felt required a bit more edge support and the treated edge then became a lot more prominent. I guess this is almost contradictory but it does seem that the thinner hats did get the edge treatments far more often and I recall reading in a hat book once that is was mostly for support.

I have a different idea of when the self felted edge appeared. I have a hat that was made some time in the early to mid 1800's and it is a thick hat but also has a self felted edge. This edge is completely different that the later attempts to duplicate this look by the Cav and Stetson and and other companies.

I notice that all the older hats that I have seen in museums over time have all been made of a much thicker felt.

I have a variety of edge treated hats that have selvge and guild edged and all similar to the cav edge but some are a lot nicer in my eyes than the more accepted cav edge.

None of them are any thing like a self felted edge however and from what I can read, this edge has been around as long as hat making has.

Cheers

Scott

 

[dopey]

I should have been clearer - I don’t care about why or when edge treatments came into being. I am much more interested in people’s thoughts on the on the aesthetic merits or demerits of the different edge treatments.

Also, I would appreciate it if someone could give a very specific primer on the correct terminology for the welted edges. Here is how I use the terms, but I would like to be corrected if I am mistaken:
SELF-WELT: The edge is doubled to create a welt. If the doubling is above the brim, it is an OVER-WELT. If it is below the brim, it is an UNDER-WELT.
Most self-welts are sewn down, and you can see the stitches. On some, though, the welt is felted into the brim. These are called FELTED WELTS, or CAVAUNAGH EDGES. I prefer CAVAUNAGH-TYPE EDGE, since other hatters did something similar, e.g., the Knox Guild Edge. I have heard of, but not seen, a BALOON WELT, where the Felted Welt was centered on the brim, rather than being an over or under-welt. That seems quite cool.

In any case, regardless of terminology, I really was looking for people’s views on their preferences among all the different edge treatments available.

 

[Matt Deckard]

First off I'm not an expert, I just know what I have seen and I have collected worn and traded many many hats from various eras. I know master hatters that claim to be experts who still know little to nothing about felt because they don't really study their trade. I know "experts" who know cowboy hats and know little to nothing about dress felt hats. Many hatters just go off what they can get from the felter and think it's the best, they go off the knowledge they have gained while in their shop and don't want to touch vintage or test out the felt because they "know how to do it better".

If there are any experts, I am sure they are working at the felt factories where the hatters get their materials.

I'm not saying the self felted edge didn't exist before the 1900's, though I'm sure you'd be hard pressed to find a self felted/Cavanagh edge style hat made in the 1800's or before.

 

[Brad Bowers]

I'm a fan of the Cav edge and all its various names. To me, it is the classiest of edges. Sewn welts are a poor substitute. Bound edges are dressy, but I like them less than the Cav.

In one discussion we had, someone mentioned that Cavanagh patented the edge process in 1931, I think, then licensed it out to other manufacturers. Every once in a while I search the U. S. Patent Office's website for the patent, but have yet to find it.

One of these days, when I have money, I'll talk to Graham at Optimo to see what it would take to revive this lost art.

Brad

 

[ScottFree]

I should have been clearer - I don’t care about why or when edge treatments came into being. I am much more interested in people’s thoughts on the on the aesthetic merits or demerits of the different edge treatments.

Also, I would appreciate it if someone could give a very specific primer on the correct terminology for the welted edges. Here is how I use the terms, but I would like to be corrected if I am mistaken:
SELF-WELT: The edge is doubled to create a welt. If the doubling is above the brim, it is an OVER-WELT. If it is below the brim, it is an UNDER-WELT.
Most self-welts are sewn down, and you can see the stitches. On some, though, the welt is felted into the brim. These are called FELTED WELTS, or CAVAUNAGH EDGES. I prefer CAVAUNAGH-TYPE EDGE, since other hatters did something similar, e.g., the Knox Guild Edge. I have heard of, but not seen, a BALOON WELT, where the Felted Welt was centered on the brim, rather than being an over or under-welt. That seems quite cool.

In any case, regardless of terminology, I really was looking for people’s views on their preferences among all the different edge treatments available.

Hi Dopey, I wish to give you my input here and then will resign from this as I do not care for the conflicts I have seen on other forums. My thoughts are not so important to me to argue about them and I prefer to just address your concerns with facts that I am sure of and then give any opinions but try to differentiate between the two.

I have several self welts and they are not the same as the self felted edge nor the same as a sewn welted edge of which I have had but did not care for.

The balloon edge you speak of is the only self felted edge that I have ever seen and is completely different form a cav style edge. I only have the one as I stated earlier and it is from early to mid 1800's.

The cav edge hats I have and a Knox guild edge and a selvge edge hat I have are all very similar but this edge is just hemmed and pressed felt edge that is not felted to the hat. It may have been glued down at some point but its clearly not completely attached to the hat as the self felted edge is.

I love the cav type edge hats but I also like raw edge hats very well.

The one I have that is called selgve edge, I have not seen for a while but recall its quite similar to the self felted edge but much smaller of a welt.

I have no idea how hats are made or of what or the processes involved but I am very clear on what I have owned as a finished product.

I have a total of over 500 hats but do no wear but 30 of so of them in rotations.

Most of these are the highest end hats of the time period they were produced in.

I hope I have understood and answered your question but again , I am not an authority but do own the hats you speak of currently and am very clear on what I am writing.



Cheers

Scott

 

[SHARPETOYS]

Hey Mr. C.
The power of the internet to self teach is awesome. In a week you didn't know what roan leather was to being an expert on felted edges. Wow!!

 

[feltfan]

Cavanagh Edge is stitched

Most self-welts are sewn down, and you can see the stitches. On some, though, the welt is felted into the brim. These are called FELTED WELTS, or CAVAUNAGH EDGES. I prefer CAVAUNAGH-TYPE EDGE, since other hatters did something similar, e.g., the Knox Guild Edge.

I picked up a well-worn but still unique and pleasing "military" grey
"Cavanagh Edge" hat from the 1950s or 1960s a while back. I was
fascinated (and a bit disappointed) to note that the edge
was worn and I could see stitches. It seems that the
Cavanagh Edge is achieved by sewing the edge of the brim
to the top of the brim and then applying additional felt.

I'm guessing that, given the number of companies that
copied the process to varying degrees of success (I have
a Stevens hat with a similar edge), the process is not lost
or at least not impossible to figure out.

 

[dopey]

I picked up a well-worn but still unique and pleasing "military" grey
"Cavanagh Edge" hat from the 1950s or 1960s a while back. I was
fascinated (and a bit disappointed) to note that the edge
was worn and I could see stitches. It seems that the
Cavanagh Edge is achieved by sewing the edge of the brim
to the top of the brim and then applying additional felt.

I'm guessing that, given the number of companies that
copied the process to varying degrees of success (I have
a Stevens hat with a similar edge), the process is not lost
or at least not impossible to figure out.

Feltfan:

While I have professed to not be that interested in the history of the different welts, I will say that your post is very interesting. I don’t know whether Cavanagh edges being stitched is a surprise to others, but it was certainly a surprise to me.

Do you still have the hat? Can you post pics? You have dropped my appreciation of the felted edge, at least the version you described, down a bit.

Does anyone have a true felted edge that they can post a photo of. I would especially love to see the balloon type.

Back to my original post. Has anyone seen a whip-stitched edge? The only one I have ever seen was on my ex-Borsalino. I liked it fine. Anyone else have any opinions?

For the h__ll of it: Do you prefer your bound brims narrow or wide. Do you like the ribbon to match the felt or have a contrast color?
My bread and butter preference is thin and matching, but I have some wide edges that look cool too. I think wide edging can get dirty more easily as well.

 

[Matt Deckard]

From what the felters say, the Cav edge uses no stitching and is done at the felt factory and not by the hatter.

 

[ScottFree]

Dopey, I have gotten some hats out of storage to try to help you more but am not sure it will.

I have the following that was easy to get at:

John the Hatter
Custom made superior quality
Beaver xxxxxxxxxx
welted to bottom
no stitching
similar to balloon welt

Borsalino
Quality extra Superiore
lot 175 price 25.00
Scott&CoLtd
Welted to top
Very Cav looking welt
no stitching

Cervo Italia
Creazione Speciale
Welted to top
very thick hat
no stitching

Dobbs
Gay prince
Simeon Ziateff
Sofia
Rue Alabinska
Welted to bottom
very tiny welt
no stitching

Stetson Selv-Edge
lot 153 price 15.95
10xbeaver quality
welted to top
no stitching


I have many more but am unable to get at them currently.




Cheers

Scott

 

[ScottFree]

I want to correct this, the Borsalino is worn just a little on the welted edge and you can see almost invisible stitching but its hidden under the edge of the welt. I am sure much like you are describing the Cav, Feltfan.

Cheers

Scott

 

[dopey]

Scottfree:
Thanks. I assume that all of the hats you mentioned are vintage, correct?

I have a Stetson Selv-Edge as well. From the top (it is an overwelt) there appears to be no stitching. From the bottom, I can see the faint puckers of stitches. My guess is it is a blind stitch done from inside the welt or just under the welt’s top border. The stitches are barely visible, but are there nonetheless. This is probably just as you described on your Borsalino. The edge of the top-welt is also sharp, unlike the Cavanagh Edge or Knox Guild Edge that I have, where the welt is smoothed out. Also, neither the Cavanagh Edge nor the Knox Twenty Guild Edge have any evidence of stitching that I can see. My scientific interest in this is not strong enough for me to abrade them to see if their are secret hidden stitches.

 

[Matt Deckard]

Doesn't matter much right now as nobody can make a cav edge at the moment. I am pretty much betting on Graham Thompson from Optimo to be the first if any of the hatters decide to bring it back.

The factories can do it, you just need a big enough order.

Aestheticly, I like the bound edge and the cav edge better than the raw edge. I do like raw edged hats, though they leave a bit to be desired when i wear them.

 

[dopey]

From what the felters say, the Cav edge uses no stitching and is done at the felt factory and not by the hatter.

Matt:
How can the welt edge be done by the felter? I though the Cavanagh edge means that the brim is pretty much fixed in circumference. Does this mean the felter delivers hat “hoods� or whatever the term is in a different size for each head size. I always though it was the hatters job to take the raw “hood� and block the crown and cut the brim to size. How would that work if the welt was already in place and the brim size was fixed? Is my understanding of the process wrong? Perhaps, it is simply not true that a Cavanagh edge is fixed. Can the brim be stretched or shrunk at all? If so, then I could see how the felter sets the general brim welt and size and the hatter can tweak the brim size as needed.

Boy: I say I am really interested in the aesthetics but I keep getting sidetracked on the technical stuff.

 

[Matt Deckard]

Yes, The hoods are of different sizes for different head sizes (at least better hatters order those in different sizes), and the brim is set to a static length. You can trim it down but then you are stuck without the Cav edge.

The hatter finishes and blocks the body, though the brim size is set. That is the biggest reason why Hatters I have spoken with are reluctant on ordering cav edge hats, they pay extra for the edge, and unless the buyer wants the specific brim width the seller is stuck with the hat.

By the by, from what I know there is a stitch that is pulled out after the cav edge is done. No stitch in the brim though they used one to make the edge.
Refelted on itself halfway through the felting process. The brim is locked, and the crown is locked, unless you have a few thousand hats and a pack of people to buy them.

Regarding more on the bound edge, many of the hatters who side against the bound edge because they think it too costly and hard to do. If the hatter talks down the bound edge he is has trouble doing it or thinks it too costly.

 

[BD Jones]

Back to my original post. Has anyone seen a whip-stitched edge? The only one I have ever seen was on my ex-Borsalino. I liked it fine. Anyone else have any opinions?

I have seen a few on Dobbs, Knox, and some lesser-known brands. I have never seen it on a Borsalino. I don't like it myself. To me, it looks "cheap", like it is a quick substitute for a bound or welted edge. Of course, I'm not fan of any edge/brim treatment. Like my edges raw. But, that's just my opinion; take it for what it's worth (which was free).

 

[Brad Bowers]

Next time someone goes to Baron's, ask Mark about his "Bond Binding." He claims this recreates the Cav edge, but who really knows? It may be similar enough, though.

My '48 Borsalino shows some wear where stitches were used in making the edge, but there are no stitches in it now.

Brad

 

[dopey]

Next time someone goes to Baron's, ask Mark about his "Bond Binding." He claims this recreates the Cav edge, but who really knows? It may be similar enough, though.

My '48 Borsalino shows some wear where stitches were used in making the edge, but there are no stitches in it now.

Brad

Maybe that is all I am seeing in my Stetson Selv-Edge - the ghost of stitches past.

O.K. I want to officially change the topic away from the technical. Would people post pictures of their favorite bound edge treatments or even their non-favorite but interesting ones. Anybody have any contrast color bindings? Maybe a really wide one? I want to get a better sense of the variety that is out there.

I can’t do a pic now, but I got a Mallory Century that seems unusual. It has a pretty wide binding, but it is only wide on the top. The grosgrain binding barely wraps the edge and is not really visible from the bottom of the brim. It is almost flush to the edge of the brim. What you do see on the bottom is a row of stitches outlining the width of the binding where it is sewn on the inside edge on the top. That is different construction than all the other wide bindings I have.