Brent Black's Panamas / Panama Hats Direct's Panamas

[Genuine Classic Gangster]

I've only owned two Panamas. One was a mass-produced one it was not very good

Several years ago I also bought a second Panama from Panama Hats Direct. It was a major step-up from my previous mass-produced Panama, but I have no other frame of reference for knowing how good of a quality it is.

Now about 5 years later, that Panama has lost its shape and needs to be sent in for cleaning in and re-blocking, but I will need to buy a second Panama to use while the first is being serviced.

And this leads me to the question of whether I should buy from Panama Hats Direct again, or Brent Black.

On Brent Black's website he claims "You won’t find a better hat at a better price."

However, when I compare the weave count numbers listed on his website, with the price tied to those weave counts, and then do the same with Panama Hats Direct's website, that quotation from Brent Black seems like it might not be accurate, if all other things are equal.

But I do not have enough knowledge to judge this matter properly, which I why I am asking you gentlemen if you can please tell me if that quoted claim is true or untrue.

For example, Panama Hats Direct lists:

WPI range 400-624 Average is 520 WPI*

Fino Fino Panama hats can only be woven with the finest straw and by a very skilled craftsman due to the extremely fine weave. Fino Fino hats start at $325.

In a comparable listing (I think?), Brent Black lists:

Grade 22 – 23 $1000 regular brim styles (to 3 inches)
$1100 wider brim styles
484 – 529 (22x22 to 23x23)

So say I went with the Brent Black instead of the Panama Hats Direct option, then would I truly be getting the $675 USD worth of extra value from the Brent Black?

And if so, why? What are the factors that would make the Brent Black one be the better option, quality-wise?

 

[dkstott]

$1000? I'll stay with my cheaper Panama hats and replace them every 3-4 years.

 

[Genuine Classic Gangster]

$1000? I'll stay with my cheaper Panama hats and replace them every 3-4 years.

Is there a reason why you don't have your Panama hats cleaned & re-blocked rather than outright replacing them?

Do Panamas fail to get re-blocked properly, or something like that? (I wouldn't know since I've never had a Panama re-blocked before...but if there is a problem with that process, maybe I should just replace instead?).

 

[belfastboy]

I've only owned two Panamas. One was a mass-produced one it was not very good

Several years ago I also bought a second Panama from Panama Hats Direct. It was a major step-up from my previous mass-produced Panama, but I have no other frame of reference for knowing how good of a quality it is.

Now about 5 years later, that Panama has lost its shape and needs to be sent in for cleaning in and re-blocking, but I will need to buy a second Panama to use while the first is being serviced.

And this leads me to the question of whether I should buy from Panama Hats Direct again, or Brent Black.

On Brent Black's website he claims "You won’t find a better hat at a better price."

However, when I compare the weave count numbers listed on his website, with the price tied to those weave counts, and then do the same with Panama Hats Direct's website, that quotation from Brent Black seems like it might not be accurate, if all other things are equal.

But I do not have enough knowledge to judge this matter properly, which I why I am asking you gentlemen if you can please tell me if that quoted claim is true or untrue.

For example, Panama Hats Direct lists:


In a comparable listing (I think?), Brent Black lists:


So say I went with the Brent Black instead of the Panama Hats Direct option, then would I truly be getting the $675 USD worth of extra value from the Brent Black?

And if so, why? What are the factors that would make the Brent Black one be the better option, quality-wise?

Value is to a large extent in the eye of the buyer. Brent Black claims he inspects his hats and chooses the best quality from the weavers.

You can buy a custom fur felt hat from $300 to $1500....same materials but the name of the maker commands the price. I have a number of Panama hats. A $100 dollar hat brought back from Ecuador by a friend, $150 from Ebay, and a $400 custom. All are great hats. On close inspection I can view the difference....to an extent. Is it a $250 difference? Very hard to say. I do wear the $100 one as a day to day hat and I do save the $400 one for dress up summer days. I would look to a Tom Gomez or Mike @ NorthWest Hats as they bring in the blanks from Ecuador and then do the blocking, sweat, ribbon work themselves. My hat from Mike is a great hat and see no need for spending more than that amount.

 

[deadlyhandsome]

You can’t Judge just by weave count. The BB hats have blocking options I like better than PHD. I also prefer the BB sweatbands. The evenness of the weave is another thing to look at, and then there is the question on how much value you give to the fair sourcing that BB prioritizes. There’s no doubt that you are also paying some for the name and the prestige with a BB. I do think the BB hat will be better made, but the PHD hat will be made well. Only you can really determine if it’s worth the premium to go with BB. PHD offers a lot of hat for the money.

I would say that you shouldn’t limit yourself to just the two companies. I’d give Mike at The Northwest Hat Co. a call (he doesn’t have Panama blocks in my size ).

 

[belfastboy]

Is there a reason why you don't have your Panama hats cleaned & re-blocked rather than outright replacing them?

Do Panamas fail to get re-blocked properly, or something like that? (I wouldn't know since I've never had a Panama re-blocked before...but if there is a problem with that process, maybe I should just replace instead?).

Unless it is an expensive Panama likely the charge to clean and reblock would approach the cost of new. I have a $250 Panama block style that a custom hatter changed from a telescope to a centre crease/pinch. The blocking damaged the straw and it split along the top edge of the pinch. I was able to repair it but now realize there is an inherent risk to the process.

 

[Genuine Classic Gangster]

Based on the recommendations in this thread, I looked at the sites of Northwest Hatco and Tom Gomez.

And I felt uneasy & uninspired after doing so, since they have little to no pricing information and/or pictures.

Maybe they make great hats, but it's hard to feel confidence in them when their websites don't provide full disclosure about those things, akin to to how Brent Black's and Panama Hats Direct's websites do.

I also remember checking Tom Gomez's website before I had first bought anything from Panama Hats Direct many years ago...and it looked exactly the same way back then too, and it also warded me off for that same reason back then.

 

[deadlyhandsome]

Some great hatters have poor websites or no website at all. I too appreciate a nice website, but when you are dealing with one-man shops who are perpetually months behind on orders I’ve learned to make allowances. Give Mike at Northwest a call. He might be able to send you some photos of his recent work. You can also look through the threads here and see his work and read some evaluations. I know I marvel over the Northwest Panama hats @Bill Hughes has.

I’ve looked at Gomez’ hats too, but like Mike he doesn’t (or at least he didn't when I last looked) have blocks in my size.

 

[jlee562]

Tom Gomez is a long respected name around here if you search through some of the older posts. Ditto for Northwest Hats. Have never bought from either of them, but would not feel any hesitation to do so. Northwest in particular has a long running and very current thread on this board filled with satisfied customers. Just my $.02

 

[belfastboy]

Tom Gomez is a long respected name around here if you search through some of the older posts. Ditto for Northwest Hats. Have never bought from either of them, but would not feel any hesitation to do so. Northwest in particular has a long running and very current thread on this board filled with satisfied customers. Just my $.02

Yes, I have 9 or 10 of Northwest Hat creations from Mike some go back 8-9 years. All of them stellar, all of them bought at less than the going rate for comparable hats. I have seen hats from hatters with brilliant websites that were much lower quality than their websites would suggest.
But go ahead and buy one from BBlack. You will get a good hat, no doubt.

 

[deadlyhandsome]

Yes, I have 9 or 10 of Northwest Hat creations from Mike some go back 8-9 years. All of them stellar, all of them bought at less than the going rate for comparable hats. I have seen hats from hatters with brilliant websites that were much lower quality than their websites would suggest.
But go ahead and buy one from BBlack. You will get a good hat, no doubt.

I’ve owned three BB men’s hats and my wife still has a less structured women’s hat. They are nice well-made Panama hats, but they aren’t anything magical. What Black does have is access to great hat bodies. Some of the other hatters, including Mike, have trouble getting the raw bodies they want. Mike has told me in the past my best bet was to get a finished hat from PHD and send it to him to reblock and replace the sweatband. I was looking for a very particular weave and with enough material to make a taller crowned Havana blocked hat. The problem sourcing Panama hat bodies will only get worse as every year there are fewer weavers.

 

[Bill Hughes]

I currently have 10 Panamas from Northwest Hats and 5 Montecristi Panamas from Brent Black. I have never bought a hat new from Brent Black. They are just too pricey for my wallet.

Northwest Hats:

 

[Bill Hughes]

Brent Black:

 

[Genuine Classic Gangster]

Mike has told me in the past my best bet was to get a finished hat from PHD and send it to him to reblock and replace the sweatband.

That reminds me: three things about my Panama Hats Direct hat that are definitely sub-par are the sweatband, and liner, and the ribbon.

Also, I hate how they glue the ribbon on by default instead of stitching it like they should do. The glue comes undone on its own, and then the ribbon looks all fubared. If I buy from them again, I'm going to ask for them to stitch it instead of glue it, although I'm not sure how they will respond to that request.

 

[belfastboy]

That reminds me: three things about my Panama Hats Direct hat that are definitely sub-par are the sweatband, and liner, and the ribbon.

Also, I hate how they glue the ribbon on by default instead of stitching it like they should do. The glue comes undone on its own, and then the ribbon looks all fubared. If I buy from them again, I'm going to ask for them to stitch it instead of glue it, although I'm not sure how they will respond to that request.

Stitching is much more time consuming that a hot glue gun and they may not have the expertise to do it nor the profit margin in the hat to allow for the extra expense. The NW Hats Panama I get to choose the ribbon (colour and style) and get a top quality leather sweat band. Depends on what you are after and how large the budget.

 

[Genuine Classic Gangster]

So, I decided to accept the good advice given to me in this thread and contact Tom and Mike.

They both seemed like really nice guys.

Mike told me he doesn't specialize in high weave count hats, and when I asked him if he has a 500 WPI hat that he could make for me, he told me no he doesn't, unless I wanted to go up to a 4 inch brim... of which he told me he would be unable to reduce the size of the brim.

When I called Tom, he told me he'd have to search to see if he had a hat body that could fit me in around 500 WPI.

After a couple of days of searching for one, and calling his friends to see if they have one, he couldn't find any. And his next higher grade of weave count that he had in stock which would have fit me would cost $2000 USD, which is an amount of money that I cannot afford to spend.

Tom say he had a 300 WPI hat that could work for me, which would cost me around $525.

But I could also get another hat with around a 300 WPI from Panama Hats Direct for $225.

Or, I could go with my original intention, which was to get a 500ish WPI hat from Panama Hats Direct for $325.

Are there reasons, other than the sweatband and ribbon and liner, which I'm sure Tom's versions of those things would be much better than Panama Hats Direct's versions are, for why I might want to go with Tom's option of $525 for for a 300 WPI hat?

If you were me, then which of those 3 options would you go for, and why?

 

[deadlyhandsome]

So, I decided to accept the good advice given to me in this thread and contact Tom and Mike.

They both seemed like really nice guys.

Mike told me he doesn't specialize in high weave count hats, and when I asked him if he has a 500 WPI hat that he could make for me, he told me no he doesn't, unless I wanted to go up to a 4 inch brim... of which he told me he would be unable to reduce the size of the brim.

When I called Tom, he told me he'd have to search to see if he had a hat body that could fit me in around 500 WPI.

After a couple of days of searching for one, and calling his friends to see if they have one, he couldn't find any. And his next higher grade of weave count that he had in stock which would have fit me would cost $2000 USD, which is an amount of money that I cannot afford to spend.

Tom say he had a 300 WPI hat that could work for me, which would cost me around $525.

But I could also get another hat with around a 300 WPI from Panama Hats Direct for $225.

Or, I could go with my original intention, which was to get a 500ish WPI hat from Panama Hats Direct for $325.

Are there reasons, other than the sweatband and ribbon and liner, which I'm sure Tom's versions of those things would be much better than Panama Hats Direct's versions are, for why I might want to go with Tom's option of $525 for for a 300 WPI hat?

If you were me, then which of those 3 options would you go for, and why?

I do like PHD, and I think they can be a good value, but I have to have the sweatband replaced before wearing it and once the hat is stripped it only makes sense to spring for the better ribbon and bow from whatever hatter is doing the sweatband.

The last thing I don’t like is the proportions, but this is the case with almost all Panama hats. I want a tall crown with little taper and I prefer the Havana crease/block. Most all Panama hats are block way too low for me.

One more potential option Montecristi Custom Hat Works. They might also be out of your budget, but they offer lots of options.

https://www.montecristihats.com/contact-and-locations/

 

[Who?]

My general feeling is “If it costs significantly less ….. it probably isn’t the same.”

Many take strong exception, and insist that they can get “the same thing” for less.

I remain unconvinced.

Spend what you wish to spend, and be satisfied with the result. (this time)

 

[belfastboy]

My general feeling is “If it costs significantly less ….. it probably isn’t the same.”

Many take strong exception, and insist that they can get “the same thing” for less.

I remain unconvinced.

Spend what you wish to spend, and be satisfied with the result. (this time)

I have my own special brand of weirdness......I have a $100 Panama brought back from Ecuador. It is a great hat and it is my everyday hat. It looks good, if fits and serves its purpose well. I also have the $150 Panma hats direct, fabric sweat, cheap crown ribbon but it too is a good hat. Then I have my $400 custom from Mike that is my 'dress' Panama. From a distance of 6' NO ONE can tell the difference between the 3 hats. The two cheaper ones I wear, don't worry about them and if I wear them out, wreck them in a deluge then c'est la vie. What/where/when will you be wearing the hat? Do you have the discretionary funds to afford the more expensive hat and still be content to wear it everyday and be happy about it? As I stated the difference between the cheapest and my most expensive hat is only discernable upon close inspection.....from 6' away it is a visual push.

 

[Who?]

I have my own special brand of weirdness......I have a $100 Panama brought back from Ecuador. It is a great hat and it is my everyday hat. It looks good, if fits and serves its purpose well. I also have the $150 Panma hats direct, fabric sweat, cheap crown ribbon but it too is a good hat. Then I have my $400 custom from Mike that is my 'dress' Panama. From a distance of 6' NO ONE can tell the difference between the 3 hats. The two cheaper ones I wear, don't worry about them and if I wear them out, wreck them in a deluge then c'est la vie. What/where/when will you be wearing the hat? Do you have the discretionary funds to afford the more expensive hat and still be content to wear it everyday and be happy about it? As I stated the difference between the cheapest and my most expensive hat is only discernable upon close inspection.....from 6' away it is a visual push.

Many use the criterion “If no one can see the difference, it does not matter.“ but you know if you are wearing a $100 hat or a $400 hat.

I’m Im not sure I care if anyone else knows (or can see) the difference, I do and I can.