Bread, the staff of life...

[Ugarte]

Well, I tried the Black Canyon Sourdough Bread this week and it failed miserably. Evidently, there wasn't enough rise. I suspect I didn't use enough starter. Either that or too much flour. At any rate, it was not a success, so I'm starting over with a much simpler recipe that uses much more starter in a smaller batch. That way if it flops I'm not out 5 1/2 cups of flour. I've also dragged out the big guns:

Ladies and gentlemen I present the vintage 1978 Oster Regency Model 900 Kitchen center fitted with dough hooks. Sorry for the quality -- it's a cell phone pic.

I'll report back when the deed is done.


Mark

 

["Skeet" McD]

Well, I tried the Black Canyon Sourdough Bread this week and it failed miserably. Evidently, there wasn't enough rise. I suspect I didn't use enough starter. Either that or too much flour. At any rate, it was not a success, so I'm starting over with a much simpler recipe that uses much more starter in a smaller batch. That way if it flops I'm not out 5 1/2 cups of flour....Mark

Dear Mark,
From your first post it looks like you're relatively new to breadbaking: good for you for getting started, and be assured: there WILL be some failures along the way; don't worry--they're an integral part of learning. Breadbaking has always been considered one of the most difficult things to make a successful recipe for...as there are too many variables (age/dryness of flour; atmospheric conditions to name just two) to control for. Ultimately, you do it by "feel"...and acquiring that feel will have a few missteps in the mix.

Having said that: sourdough is the DEEP end of the pool...if I were you, I'd start with a dozen or so tries with a recipe using commercial yeast, of whatever form you prefer. It will be enough to begin to get a feel for when the dough is "right" (you MAY be right about adding too much flour: that's the temptation. But doughs that are too slack are no better than doughs that are too stiff!). The amount of flour needed to produce a dough of the proper consistency will vary stock of flour to stock of flour and day to day; but you learn to judge by look and feel rather than by measure.

Once you've acquired that skill...it will be time enough to add the complexity of sourdough. But, if you choose to soldier on....remember: MAKE SURE YOUR STARTER IS_FULLY_ACTIVATED! This means it has doubled and is actively and visibly bubbling away, not just that there are some bubbles appearing on the surface. Depending on the size/strength of your yeast colony, the temperature, etc....this can take hours to days...if you have a new starter you've raised from scratch.

And, once it's in the dough....you have to be careful to catch the moment when the yeast is at its fullest activity in the lump...if you wait too long (and the colony is exhausting its food supply and going dormant)...you'll have flattish bread; if you don't wait long enough (and the colony hasn't produced enough exhalations)...you'll have flattish bread.

All of this sounds scary...but honestly, it isn't brain surgery: it just takes a bit of experience. You'll get it, if you soldier on. If you know or can find a friendly bread baker with experience to show you what the dough should look like at the various stages, things will go A LOT smoother.

Good luck, and let us see your efforts!

"Skeet"

 

[Ugarte]

Skeet, thanks for the input. I am indeed new to the endeavor and have only produced a few truly acceptable loaves of basic bread so far. I understand the leap that it takes to get into sourdough, but there has been plenty of encouragement around (and I am extremely encouragable).

[QUOTE="Skeet" McD]Dear Mark,
Ultimately, you do it by "feel"...and acquiring that feel will have a few missteps in the mix.[/quote]

Got it. I'm aware of that feel and am trying to make bread regularly enough that the "feel" sinks in. I am happy to report that I do believe I'm learning.

But, if you choose to soldier on....remember: MAKE SURE YOUR STARTER IS_FULLY_ACTIVATED! This means it has doubled and is actively and visibly bubbling away, not just that there are some bubbles appearing on the surface. Depending on the size/strength of your yeast colony, the temperature, etc....this can take hours to days...if you have a new starter you've raised from scratch.

This is a starter I put together from scratch on Sunday, March 31 from whole wheat flour. It responds well to feeding and has a nice yeasty smell to it. When it builds, it is bubbly and kind of gooey. I've been feeding it wheat flour as well as regular bread flour since day 4 and it seems to make no difference which flour it is fed.

And, once it's in the dough....you have to be careful to catch the moment when the yeast is at its fullest activity in the lump...if you wait too long (and the colony is exhausting its food supply and going dormant)...you'll have flattish bread; if you don't wait long enough (and the colony hasn't produced enough exhalations)...you'll have flattish bread.

And here's the thing about the batch in question: I let it rise according to the directions (about 12 - 15 hours). I put two boules down at around 10:00 Wednesday night and let them sit under a towel. When I got up in the morning they looked pretty good, but I had a job interview so I went on about my business until around 11:30 Thursday morning (and yes, I managed to get the job. Yea!).

When I looked at the lumps of dough it was apparent that they were both collapsing, settling back onto the cookie sheet they were sitting on. I got them into the oven as quickly as I could and they wound up peculiarly shaped (picture an upside down pot pie) and terribly heavy. I pulled them before they got good and golden brown because I was concerned that it just wasn't happening. The boules were hard on the outside and dense on the inside. The flavor was okay, but the texture was heavy and dense.

We'll see what today's batch brings. The dough has been rising for about an hour and a half and it has just about doubled.

Good luck, and let us see your efforts!

Thank you sir.

Mark
.

 

["Skeet" McD]

You're on the right track!

This is a starter I put together from scratch on Sunday, March 31 from whole wheat flour. It responds well to feeding and has a nice yeasty smell to it. When it builds, it is bubbly and kind of gooey. I've been feeding it wheat flour as well as regular bread flour since day 4 and it seems to make no difference which flour it is fed.

That SHOULD be long enough to achieve a good, strong colony...remember to feed regularly...if your starter is sitting at room temperature, it should be actively working; if it goes dormant....things you DON'T want to have in your bread can move in. If it's not actively bubbling away....into the fridge with it. I generally take my starter out the night before I want to make bread...put some flour in, and let it warm up overnight; by the morning, it's cooking again. Depending on the strength of the reaction, I can either use it that day, or feed it through the day, make a sponge that night...allow THAT to work overnight...and then make the dough proper the next day. It makes no difference what sort of flour you put in there....the important thing is to ONLY put flour and water in there: no adjuvants.

Believe me, I'm speaking from experience regarding the difficulties of judging a newly created batch of sourdough starter. After about 5 years, my cherished 1847 sourdough starter became infected (my own fault: got too careless. It happens). So, only about a month ago, I started another batch. Even with my considerable experience with this particular strain of sourdough yeast, I misjudged the amount of activation. My first loaves from my new starter were edible...and light(ish)...but not right; It took another day of feeding to achieve a colony large and strong enough to achieve the results I am used to.

And here's the thing about the batch in question: I let it rise according to the directions (about 12 - 15 hours). I put two boules down at around 10:00 Wednesday night and let them sit under a towel. When I got up in the morning they looked pretty good, but I had a job interview so I went on about my business until around 11:30 Thursday mornin...When I looked at the lumps of dough it was apparent that they were both collapsing, settling back onto the cookie sheet they were sitting on. I got them into the oven as quickly as I could and they wound up peculiarly shaped (picture an upside down pot pie) and terribly heavy. I pulled them before they got good and golden brown because I was concerned that it just wasn't happening. The boules were hard on the outside and dense on the inside. The flavor was okay, but the texture was heavy and dense.

I think, from your description, there's little doubt what happened: you missed the peak of the rise, in a MAJOR way. This is OK, like I said: this is exactly how you learn. But that second rise should, in my experience, be somewhere between two and six hours, maxmimum...and those are the very far poles! Usually, for me with my conditions and starter, the second rise is about 3 hours. Chances are everything was just fine....but your yeasts finished the food they had available and went dormant; the exhalations that made your bread rise dissipated...the bread collapsed...and THEN it went into the oven. This actually is GOOD news : its pretty certain that was your problem, and the solution is obvious. I'm sure you will be more successful the next time. BTW: if you find yourself in a situation where things are going to be longer than expected--put your dough into a cool environment, like the basement or the fridge. That will slow things down without stopping them, and give you the time you need. Congratulations on the job!

We'll see what today's batch brings. The dough has been rising for about an hour and a half and it has just about doubled.

Then it's time; again, the right way to judge is by eye, not clock. Most doughs want to double; SOME--but relatively few--want to triple. If you haven't gotten your loaves to the oven when you read this (hopefully you have), do so immediately (as much as I can tell from Massachusetts!)

 

[Ugarte]

It's done. My opinion is less than enthusiastic. I seem to have pretty much what I had last time.

Here is the boule in question next to the starter I used. The crust is firm and the thing makes a hollow sound when the bottom is tapped. Here is a picture of the bread next to my container of starter. The grainy texture of the starter is all bubbles.

The color is good, but the texture seems a bit rough and the dough did not hold its shape all that well.

The bread is, again, dense and heavy to my thinking.

Flavor is okay, but seems bland and there is a faintly bitter element on the back of the tongue. The crust is hard and seems rather thick. Granted this was a really simple recipe -- the simplest I could find:

(http://www.foodnetwork.com/recipes/emeril-lagasse/basic-sourdough-bread-recipe/index.html Ingredients

* 2 cups bread flour [I used all-purpose flour]
* 1 1/2 cups sourdough starter, recipe follows
* 3/4 teaspoon salt)

The recipe could account for the flavor, but the texture and density have me flummoxed. The dough was soft and well risen when I dropped it on the stone. Cooking time was 1 hour and I expected the crust to be darker than it turned out to be.

I don't know. Still pondering.

Mark
.

 

["Skeet" McD]

Dear Mark,
Doesn't look bad at all...as far as crust and crumb goes. The shape is almost certainly a result of....the way you shaped it. This is the single largest problem for most people--myself included!--when we start making free-shaped breads. Essentially....what you are making is a balloon. Your first rise will leave you with a slightly hardened skin on the outside of the lump. It's your job to stretch that skin fairly tight around the softer crumb inside it: then the surface tension created will allow the loaf, as it inflates with the exhalations of the yeast, to keep it's shape; if not, it will just spread out in the line of least resistance...giving you a low, wide loaf instead of a round, high one. Again, the best thing to do is find someone who bakes free-standing loaves regularly and watch them. If you can't do that, I strongly recommend the YouTube videos you can find at thebackhomebakery.com; some are on YouTube as well. Here's the "shaping" one:


Here's a video that shows roughly how I form a boule (forget, if you can, the corny accent):

[YOUTUBE]<object width="980" height="765"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/I5t-1sJwzFs&hl=en_US&fs=1&rel=0&border=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/I5t-1sJwzFs&hl=en_US&fs=1&rel=0&border=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="980" height="765"></embed></object>[/YOUTUBE]

If you want a darker crust, try turning the oven up to STUN about 5 minutes before the loaf is done; this is safer if you have a little experience with the dough, so you can judge it properly. Remember: sourdough is notorious for NOT browning very well; if you really want a dark crust, but don't want to risk burning the bread, you can also give it an egg wash.

The starter looks good: regarding the off taste...that DOESN'T sound good. Are you sure that your starter has been working ALL the time it was out at room temperature? Sadly, it may have picked up some bugs you'd prefer not to have there. But, of course, all sourdoughs are different. If you don't like the taste of this one, try another. I'm partial to Carl's Sourdough: the story alone is worth the price of admission...which, by the way, is exactly....first class postage and a self-addressed envelope:
[URL="http://carlsfriends.net/"]http://carlsfriends.net/

Really...I think you are well on your way! Keep baking. I think you'll find each loaf is better than the last.

"Skeet"

 

[Ugarte]

Thanks for the feedback and tips Skeet. I've had a second piece of the bread with some butter and grape jelly (and a glass of cold Stella Artois) and my opinion of the flavor is improving. It's not something to write home about but it is certainly edible.

I liked the video and found it informative. I'll keep that technique in mind for my next batch. I'll also watch the starter. It's about time to finish the building and start refrigerating it. We'll see how it goes from there.

Again, thanks a bunch and I'll keep you all posted.


Mark
.

 

[jwalls]

Ladies and Gentlemen;

I submit that no type of bread is superior to homemade buttermilk biscuits.My mother could make them in her sleep, without measuring any of the ingredients.

 

[Mav]

Any of you folks bake your own with any regularity?

.

Weekly. Whole wheat/ oatmeal. Haven't bought bread since we scored a bread machine about 10 years ago.

 

[Puzzicato]

Any of you folks bake your own with any regularity?


Mark
.

Generally if we have bread in the house it's because I've baked. I find kneading very therapeutic. My grandfather always made bread when I was growing up and it was always the first thing I wanted to eat when I'd been feeling poorly, so there is a nice nurturing feel to baking bread for me. And it gives me something to do with the whey from my cheesemaking.

 

[Puzzicato]

It's done. My opinion is less than enthusiastic. I seem to have pretty much what I had last time.

Here is the boule in question next to the starter I used. The crust is firm and the thing makes a hollow sound when the bottom is tapped. Here is a picture of the bread next to my container of starter. The grainy texture of the starter is all bubbles.

The color is good, but the texture seems a bit rough and the dough did not hold its shape all that well.

The bread is, again, dense and heavy to my thinking.

Flavor is okay, but seems bland and there is a faintly bitter element on the back of the tongue. The crust is hard and seems rather thick. Granted this was a really simple recipe -- the simplest I could find:

(http://www.foodnetwork.com/recipes/emeril-lagasse/basic-sourdough-bread-recipe/index.html Ingredients

* 2 cups bread flour [I used all-purpose flour]
* 1 1/2 cups sourdough starter, recipe follows
* 3/4 teaspoon salt)

The recipe could account for the flavor, but the texture and density have me flummoxed. The dough was soft and well risen when I dropped it on the stone. Cooking time was 1 hour and I expected the crust to be darker than it turned out to be.

I don't know. Still pondering.

Mark
.

To me that looks like you didn't let it cool properly before slicing it. As it is the steam that makes the bread rise, you need to let it cool completely and let the gluten harden off (that probably isn't the right way to explain it) before you slice it otherwise you compress the bread and the texture is heavier and claggier than it should be.

 

[57plymouth]

I have not bought a loaf of bread in over two years. Every bit of bread my family takes is home made.

Here's my method...

http://sahd57plymouth.blogspot.com/2009_01_01_archive.html

 

[Optionseeker]

I submit that no type of bread is superior to homemade buttermilk biscuits.My mother could make them in her sleep, without measuring any of the ingredients.

Biscuits are an art form. This thread inspired me to toss together a batch of 'no knead' bread which took less than 5mins. I'll leave it to sit for 18hrs or so, shape it into a loaf, leave it for 2 more hours and then bake it. Amazingly simple and excellent results.

J

 

[HepKitty]

I love baking bread. one of my favorite jobs was as a baker at a health food store. we made all kinds, plain white (the best gluey white bread ever), whole wheat, French baguettes, sours: plain white sour, rye sours plain caraway or lemon and dill, and lightly sour wheats with all sorts of stuff dried tomatoes and herbs, kalamata olive & rosemary, peppercorn parmesan, and asiago. that one recipe is fabu, works great for roasted red peppers and herbs too. also made scones as for what kind we could throw in whatever we wanted I liked maple oat & walnut, sweet rolls, lunch rolls... at home I don't bake bread as often just because my kids and I can't eat it all. I have tons of recipes if anyone is interested

 

[HepKitty]

nobody asked but oh well here you go anyway

french bread a la Lizbelly (yeah that's me, I came up w/ this recipe based on a plain french recipe)

I didn't bother to measure so here's best guess:

sponge, start 3 days before:

1.5 c water
1 tsp dry yeast
1 tsp cider vinegar
about 1 c flour

mix well, it should be thin, and let fester for 2 days

day before:

add about 1 c flour and stir, leave room at the top of the container for it to fluff up

baking day:

mix 1 tbsp yeast with 1/2 c water, mix with sponge, and add about 2 cups of flour, cup at a time, and stir. and stir some more. it should be thick and rubbery. keep stirring for about 10 minutes. mix 2 tsp salt in 1/4 c warm water and stir into dough. from here add enough flour to make your dough, knead for a while yeah by now you're tired and ready to hit the wine before the bread is done but too bad keep going, leave it a little slack but not sticky. cover in flour and let rise to double, punch down, let rise to double again (this is why you need so much yeast and don't worry you won't have an over-yeasty flavor when done). when you shape your loaves (boules, baguettes, batards, doesn't matter), you'll probably need a little extra flour but if you leave a little extra flour on top it will be pretty when you're done. let rise, slash how you like, bake at 450 F with steam (400F convection oven). steam only when you put the loaves in, turn after baking half way. done when they sound hollow when tapped on the bottom. considering I didn't measure anything but the salt, I'm lucky this turned out well at all

 

[HepKitty]

Beer Bread

2 2/3 Cups self-rising flour
12 oz. can beer, freshly opened, chilled or at room temperature

1. Heat over to 375 degrees. Lightly grease a 9 x 5 x 3 in. loaf pan.

2. Put flour in a medium bowl. Add beer and stir with spatula until
mixed and flour is moistened completely. Scrape into prepared pan.

3. Bake 50-55 minutes until top is lightly browned, sides pull away
from pan and pick inserted near center comes out clean.

4. Cool in pan on a wire rack 5 min., then turn out on rack to cool.

5. To serve: Cut in 1/2 think slices with serrated bread knife.

I have also added some grated cheese and/or some garlic powder on
occasion. Good!

**Butter the top as soon as it comes out of oven to help soften the top.
It has a hard crust. And wait a while before cutting it.

 

[HepKitty]

Honey Lemon Whole Wheat Bread (oh how I love this one)

2 1/2 c bread flour
1 T yeast
2 t salt
2 1/4 c warm water
1/4 c honey
3 T butter
1 T grated lemon zest
2-3 c whole wheat flour

dissolve the yeast in the water. add the rest except for the ww flour, stir with a wooden spoon for about 10 minutes. the dough will be more like a thick batter at this point and should seem rubbery. add the ww flour a bit at a time, first stirring in then kneading. one thing that bread books assume you know (and I didn't!!!) that if the dough is sticky, add more flour. the dough shouldn't be sticky but should still be soft. you don't want it too stiff or dry, especially with whole grain flours. knead 5-10 minutes or so, cover and let rise 20 minutes. shape into loaves (makes 2 2# loaves), put in greased loaf pans, cover w/ plastic wrap and let rise in the fridge. bake at 350 for about 40 minutes or so, turning after 20. it's done when it sounds hollow when the bottom of the loaf is tapped.



Bara Caraw

To make one 2-pound loaf

1 1/4 to 1 1/2 cups warm water
1 1/2 cups (6 ounces) bread flour
1 1/2 cups (6 ounces) whole-wheat flour
1 cup (4 ounces) rolled oats
1 teaspoon caraway seeds
½ cup dark brown sugar
In a small bowl, sprinkle the yeast over half the water. Leave this to stand - five minutes for fresh yeast and 15 for dried. Put the ¬flours, oats, salt, caraway seeds and sugar in a mixing bowl. ¬Make a well in the center and pour in the yeast and 1/2 cup plus 2 tablespoons of the remaining water. Mix everything to dough, adding the rest of the water if necessary. Turn the dough w to a floured work surface and knead it. Return it to the bowl, cover it and leave it in a warm place for 1 hour to double in size.
Preheat the oven to 400°F. Knead the dough again and place it ii: a 2-pound loaf pan. Leave it to rise for 20 minutes. Bake the loaf for 40 minutes and cool it on a wire rack.

*or leave out the caraway and prepare to have the best pb & honey sandwich of your life



made this at the bakery, people waited before we opened to make sure they got some. if it weren't the first one I started late friday night and the last one done saturday a m (usually 2 hours after we opened) and had I not been so tired I might have felt a little bad for not having it done early. that and their lack of manners, one lady was particularly um aggressive wanting to make sure she got a loaf

Rum Honey Bread

1 cake yeast
2 cups warm (110 ° F) milk
Approximately 6 cups unbleached bread flour
2 teaspoons vegetable oil
4.tablespoons honey
2 eggs, at room temperature, lightly beaten
grated rind of 1 medium-size lemon
1/4 cup light rum
1 teaspoon salt

Yield: 2 medium-size loaves

In a 6-quart mixing bowl, dissolve half the yeast in 1 cup milk. Add 1 cup flour. Mix well. Fer¬ment in a warm (75' F) place for 3 ½ hours (no longer than 5 hours). Then add the rest of the yeast and the milk. Mix well. Add the remaining ingredients, mixing the salt with the remaining flour, and work them into a dough.
Turn the dough onto a lightly floured surface and knead it for 6 to 7 minutes, until the dough is smooth, elastic, and somewhat glossy.
Return the dough to the mixing bowl and cover with a towel. Let rise in a warm (75 ° F.) place for 1 hour, or until doubled in bulk.
Divide the dough into 2 equal halves and shape each into an oblong loaf. Set on a baking sheet that has been lightly greased with vegetable shorten¬ing. Cover with a towel and let rise again for 50 minutes.
Bake in a preheated 375' F. oven for 40 minutes, or until golden brown. Remove the loaves from the baking sheet at once and allow them to cool on a wire rack.



not that it's really the season for warm spicy things but this is nummy

Spiced French Coffee Bread


1/2 cup raisins
1 tablespoon brandy
1 cake yeast
1 cup warm (110' E) milk
1 cup warm (110' F.) strong coffee
2 teaspoons vegetable oil
4 teaspoons honey
3 eggs, at room temperature, lightly beaten
1/2 cup chopped nuts
Grated rind of 1 lemon
Pinch cinnamon
Pinch allspice
Pinch ground cloves
1 teaspoon salt
Approximately 6 cups unbleached bread flour

Yield: 2 medium-size loaves

Marinate the raisins in the brandy for 15 minutes. In a 6-quart mixing bowl, dissolve the yeast in the milk. Add the marinated raisins and remaining in¬gredients, mixing the salt with the flour, and work them into a dough.
Turn the dough onto a lightly floured surface and knead it for 6 to 7 minutes, until the dough is smooth, elastic, and somewhat glossy.
Return the dough to the mixing bowl and cover with a towel. Let the dough rise in a warm (75' F.) place for 1 hour, or until doubled in bulk.
Divide the dough into 2 equal halves and shape each into an oblong loaf. Set on a baking sheet that has been lightly greased with vegetable shorten¬ing. Cover the loaves with a towel and let them rise again for 50 minutes.
Bake in a preheated 350' F. oven for 45 minutes, or until golden brown. Remove the loaves from the baking sheet at once and allow them to cool on a wire rack.

 

[unaspenser]

I'm a bread baker too. I love the River Cottage Sourdough recipe found here: http://community.rivercottage.net/users/River Cottage summers here/recipes/river-cottage-sourdough as it produces consistently amazing results.

I also like to make sourdough bagels. What a treat!

 

[HepKitty]

I'm a bread baker too. I love the River Cottage Sourdough recipe found here: http://community.rivercottage.net/users/River Cottage summers here/recipes/river-cottage-sourdough as it produces consistently amazing results.

I also like to make sourdough bagels. What a treat!

I tried making bagels once... once. they didn't turn out very good lol

 

[unaspenser]

I tried making bagels once... once. they didn't turn out very good lol

lol... they can be a wee bit tricky, that's for sure. I make sourdough ones since I'm just kind of a sourdough nut, but I assume the concept isn't totally different for commercial yeast. This is the recipe I like, since it's about the simplest one I've found:

http://willowtreecreek.wordpress.com/2009/03/22/sourdough-bagels/