Bowler Hat Differences

[Seb Lucas]

I've been an enthusiast of bowler hats for 40 years, ever since I bought a coke from Lock and Co in 1977 - $30 pounds.

I know their history but can some people clarify a few manufacturing points?

I understand some of the vintage models are made from wool felt? Is this accurate and why?

Also I see quite a few light weight, softer models in junk stores, but rarely any stiffer or harder versions. Is there any sense of how many were made in a firmer felt versus softer felt?

Is there an on line reference guide to changes in the look of bowlers from mid 1850's? I see narrow brims, wider brims, high onion shaped crowns and low crowns. I wonder too if the American Derby had any special characteristics.

Regards

 

[mayserwegener]

Great questions. Have you looked through this thread (the information improves over time)? I think it might be best to move your post there.

http://www.thefedoralounge.com/threads/the-bowler-or-derby-hat.32818/

I mostly collect German, Austrian, Italian and Czech vintage hats including many Stiff Felts. I use the Hat Industry term Stiff Felt because every major hat producing country had their own name for them (Bowler, Derby, Melone, ect.). Right now I don't have time to reply but I will try to do so in the next couple days. I am sure others will pipe in too.

 

[Seb Lucas]

Thanks - yes I've dipped in and out. Some lovely hats on show.

 

[mayserwegener]

I've been an enthusiast of bowler hats for 40 years, ever since I bought a coke from Lock and Co in 1977 - $30 pounds.

I know their history but can some people clarify a few manufacturing points?

I understand some of the vintage models are made from wool felt? Is this accurate and why?

Also I see quite a few light weight, softer models in junk stores, but rarely any stiffer or harder versions. Is there any sense of how many were made in a firmer felt versus softer felt?

Is there an on line reference guide to changes in the look of bowlers from mid 1850's? I see narrow brims, wider brims, high onion shaped crowns and low crowns. I wonder too if the American Derby had any special characteristics.

Regards

>>I understand some of the vintage models are made from wool felt? Is this accurate and why?

In Europe Wool Stiff Felts were very popular but not in America. It was mostly price related but also know how. The European makers were very advanced in Wool Stiff and Soft Felt hat making.

>>
Also I see quite a few light weight, softer models in junk stores, but rarely any stiffer or harder versions. Is there any sense of how many were made in a firmer felt versus softer felt?
>>

Once you get into the 1960s the correct way of making Stiff Felt Hats disappeared. The reason being is that they required a different manufacturing process. Major hat companies had separate divisions for Stiff and Soft Felt Hats. The production processes of Wool and Fur Stiff Felts is too much to cover here. Once Stiff Felt Hats became unpopular the Stiff Felt production sections were closed. The result was stiffer Soft Felt Hats.

>>
Is there an on line reference guide to changes in the look of bowlers from mid 1850's? I see narrow brims, wider brims, high onion shaped crowns and low crowns. I wonder too if the American Derby had any special characteristics.
<<

I don't know of any reference. I have a good number of German and Austrian Hat catalogs going back to the 19th Century that show various Stiff Felts (I also have a large collection of early 20th Century Wool and Fur German and Austrian Stiff Felts). There are also American Hat catalogs here that you can look through. There was more variety when they were most popular (up to WWI?). I am sure depending on local or time period certain forms and dimensions were more popular but there were always exceptions (this is why I would be skeptical of a fashion reference).

I have some early 20th Century books in German that go into detail regarding Wool and Fur Stiff Felt Hat Production. As I said the production processes were different for Stiff Felt Hats. Also there was a push to make light weight + self conforming Stiff Felts especially as Soft Felts became more popular.

I mostly stay away from fashion and focus on production.

 

[Seb Lucas]

Thank you for this information. I read through 55 pages of the Bowler Derby thread. Some of the most elegant hat shapes appear to come from Germany and Austria. I see from catalogues that different crowns and brims were available at the same time. I had wrongly thought that each era had a particular shape.

When I was in a London in 1977 a small number of business men still wore bowlers. They looked to be Dunn and Lock models. I saw them being worn ( often with trench coats) about 6-8 times a day. I was a boy and I was totally fascinated by them.

In Australia, where I live, the only Bowlers I have found in antique shops and junk stores appear to be from 1900 to 1940, sometimes made here and always lighter, less stiff felt, probably because of the heat down here.

 

[ofcoursemyhorse]

I will agree that some of my favorite bowlers that have been posted have been of Austrian/German make, MayserWegener's melone with mirrored liner and another I believe is labeled autocape which featured a liner that was a second shade of felt are both amazing.

But I will make a defense for American made derbies, if you look back at the stored volumes of The American Hatter you'll notice a seemingly endless variety of brim and crown variations.

http://www.thefedoralounge.com/threads/early-stetson-models-ads-pre-depression.49068/page-2

 

[mayserwegener]

American Hat companies made great Stiff Felts. I think when it comes to form they were very similar to European Stiff Felts. The big difference is the use of Fur over Wool in America. Fur Felt in general produces a better quality Stiff Felt but at higher price point. European Fur Stiff Felts are very similar to American Fur Stiff Felts. I really don't see one having the advantage over the other when it comes to standard colors and smooth finish. There are some unique late 19th Century early 20th Century Central European Stiff Felts in the Novy Jicin Museum collection (see link below).

https://www.flickr.com/photos/26044488@N04/albums/72157626379615437

 

[Seb Lucas]

I will agree that some of my favorite bowlers that have been posted have been of Austrian/German make, MayserWegener's melone with mirrored liner and another I believe is labeled autocape which featured a liner that was a second shade of felt are both amazing.

But I will make a defense for American made derbies, if you look back at the stored volumes of The American Hatter you'll notice a seemingly endless variety of brim and crown variations.

I've admired many a derby made by Stetson, Knox and Mallory. Stetson was big down here in the first half of the 20th Century. As it happens many Stetson's were made by Akubra under license in Australia.

 

[Heart Felt]

Great questions. Have you looked through this thread (the information improves over time)? I think it might be best to move your post there.

http://www.thefedoralounge.com/threads/the-bowler-or-derby-hat.32818/

I mostly collect German, Austrian, Italian and Czech vintage hats including many Stiff Felts. I use the Hat Industry term Stiff Felt because every major hat producing country had their own name for them (Bowler, Derby, Melone, ect.). Right now I don't have time to reply but I will try to do so in the next couple days. I am sure others will pipe in too.

I just received my Huckel bowler hat, circa. 1920s, And it is extremely stiff! This is my first bowler hat, mind you (I have a number of fedoras from different eras though), but I wasn’t expecting it to be that stiff. It’s a little small but Im trying to stretch it out (very carefully). I’m always on the lookout for a Mayser though. Here’s hoping I succeed. One question if you have a second: Have you heard if anyone successfully stretching a bowler to size? Thanks!!

 

[mayserwegener]

I just received my Huckel bowler hat, circa. 1920s, And it is extremely stiff! This is my first bowler hat, mind you (I have a number of fedoras from different eras though), but I wasn’t expecting it to be that stiff. It’s a little small but Im trying to stretch it out (very carefully). I’m always on the lookout for a Mayser though. Here’s hoping I succeed. One question if you have a second: Have you heard if anyone successfully stretching a bowler to size? Thanks!!

Older ones will be more stiff. It can be difficult to stretch Stiff Felts. Do you have any photos? Also a photo of the paper label behind the sweatband?

 

[BobHufford]

I've been trying to stretch a 1930s Stetson bowler that is marked as my size (I am a LO though) for a year or so. Not really having any luck. The sweatband seam was already popped, so I don't have many worries about trying. The hat just is not having it.

 

[ErWeSa]

I just received my Huckel bowler hat, circa. 1920s, And it is extremely stiff! This is my first bowler hat, mind you (I have a number of fedoras from different eras though), but I wasn’t expecting it to be that stiff. It’s a little small but Im trying to stretch it out (very carefully). I’m always on the lookout for a Mayser though. Here’s hoping I succeed. One question if you have a second: Have you heard if anyone successfully stretching a bowler to size? Thanks!!

It can be dandergous trying to stretch one of the old stiff hats - the leather may be dry and break, the seam may break as well. So without careful "preparation" (softening of the leather with some dubbin etc.) I would no try this. If the problem is that the hat doesn't correspond to the shape of your head you could try to put the bowler/top hat into the oven - heat it to about 50 degrees celsius, then put it on your head and it will be soft enough to adopt the shape of your head. Wait till it has cooled down and it will fit perfectly (this is the way these hats were made to fit in the old days - provided that the size corresponded to the head).

 

[Rmccamey]

My experience with vintage bowlers is that they seem to run 1/2 to 1 size (US) smaller than marked.

I just received my Huckel bowler hat, circa. 1920s, And it is extremely stiff! This is my first bowler hat, mind you (I have a number of fedoras from different eras though), but I wasn’t expecting it to be that stiff. It’s a little small but Im trying to stretch it out (very carefully). I’m always on the lookout for a Mayser though. Here’s hoping I succeed. One question if you have a second: Have you heard if anyone successfully stretching a bowler to size? Thanks!!

 

[M Hatman]

1922

1924

Also 1922

 

[M Hatman]

My experience with vintage bowlers is that they seem to run 1/2 to 1 size (US) smaller than marked.



View attachment 249300

You wear those so well!!!!!

 

[johnnycanuck]

I have two. Love the hat, style and history. Have difficulty pulling it off. One is a modern soft top from Magill hats (back when they were cheap as dirt) second was vintage and fit my 59 LO head perfectly. Stiff like a hard hat. Problem was after a few years of not very regular use the brim started separating from the crown. No way to fix that and I heard it wasn’t an uncommon problem. So I have generally given up on Bowlers. There is still a thought in the back of my head to stiffen up the soft one to get it the way I want. Just haven’t done it yet.
Johnny

 

[mayserwegener]

It can be dandergous trying to stretch one of the old stiff hats - the leather may be dry and break, the seam may break as well. So without careful "preparation" (softening of the leather with some dubbin etc.) I would no try this. If the problem is that the hat doesn't correspond to the shape of your head you could try to put the bowler/top hat into the oven - heat it to about 50 degrees celsius, then put it on your head and it will be soft enough to adopt the shape of your head. Wait till it has cooled down and it will fit perfectly (this is the way these hats were made to fit in the old days - provided that the size corresponded to the head).

Wolfgang, I will have to try the oven thing.

 

[mayserwegener]

Brim distortion will be more apparent in a Stiff Felt if stretched / altered without a way to fix (maybe impossible today). Normally the Brim should lie flat. I have a more Oval head shape so a rounded Stiff Felt can be problematic even if the correct size.

 

[mayserwegener]

My experience with vintage bowlers is that they seem to run 1/2 to 1 size (US) smaller than marked.



View attachment 249300

Randy, That is good advice. You can always add padding behind the sweatband. That was done all the time back in the day.

 

[Rmccamey]

Thank you, gents, I really like my half-dozen bowlers.

You wear those so well!!!!!

Randy, That is good advice. You can always add padding behind the sweatband. That was done all the time back in the day.