Bowler edge trim replacement

[bobx]

Now that the dent has been removed from my bowler I would like to replace the edge ribbon trim. As you can see from the picture the trim is frayed in many places. It appears that the trim is 1" to 1 1/4" wide. I think it is referred to as grosrain ribbon. The edge of the trim on the underside of the hat appears to be sewn on with a hand stitches which are about 1/2" long. I can not tell how the edge of the trim on the top side of the hat is attached. I am guessing that it is glued on because I do not see any stitches. Can anyone help me in finding the correct vintage grosgrain ribbon and instructions on how to replace it ?

Bob

 

[jlee562]

Hi Bob, for posts such as this the "ask a question, get an answer" thread at the top of the main forum is usually the best place as opposed to starting a new thread.

I suppose it's possible to do the repair yourself, but I'd imagine if you don't have any experience doing the binding, it might be a challenging task. You may want to consider sending it out for renovations to a shop like Optimo in Chicago (www.optimohats.com) which will charge you $25 for the task.

 

[Brad Bowers]

Hi Bob, welcome to the Lounge and welcome as a fellow Derby enthusiast!

My thread on Derby Deconstruction will reveal the mysteries of the edge binding for you, as they are a bit different from regular edge binding. I wouldn't send one of my Derbies to any custom hatter until they convinced me they know the historical and proper methods for working on Derbies. Most hatters and manufacturers don't have the proper blocks and specialized tools that Derbies require.

Derbies used silk grosgrain ribbon, which has advantages over cotton/rayon, but as you've discovered, it doesn't hold up to wear after a hundred years. Mokuba, a Japanese company, makes the appropriate ribbon, but it's quite pricey, and they have limited retail establishments. They have a Los Angeles office, so maybe they have a California outlet, too.

Brad

 

[jlee562]

Mr. Bowers, I don't mean to come off as contrarian, but in your estimation, would Optimo not qualify as being properly versed in Derbies?

 

[Brad Bowers]

Mr. Bowers, I don't mean to come off as contrarian, but in your estimation, would Optimo not qualify as being properly versed in Derbies?

I haven't seen any Derbies that Optimo has rebuilt, but judging from the Derby on their website, my answer is "No." If their custom-made Derby doesn't have the proper bound edge or D'Orsay curl, I would say that Optimo has little experience with historic Derbies. That why I said they'd have to convince me they know what they're doing. Hatters think they know what a Derby looks like, but unless they've handled ones prior to 1940, they really don't know how to make them. It's not just an open crown hat with curled, bound edged brim.
It's much more unique and special than that.

Brad

 

[rlk]

They would be more than hesitant to alter or stitch an older stiff hat. The earlier edge binding is not a type they do and would be difficult on a pre-shaped hat other than by hand-still potentially risky. Not practical for a hat shop cost or risk wise. They will do a clean only in some cases. There is a desire to have the capability in the future for the proper edge curl.

 

[jlee562]

They would be more than hesitant to alter or stitch an older stiff hat. The earlier edge binding is not a type they do and would be difficult on a pre-shaped hat other than by hand-still potentially risky. Not practical for a hat shop cost or risk wise. They will do a clean only in some cases. There is a desire to have the capability in the future for the proper edge curl.

Based on the responses of two folks who know much better than I do, I withdraw my earlier advice.[huh]

 

[Matt Deckard]

I haven't seen any Derbies that Optimo has rebuilt, but judging from the Derby on their website, my answer is "No." If their custom-made Derby doesn't have the proper bound edge or D'Orsay curl, I would say that Optimo has little experience with historic Derbies. That why I said they'd have to convince me they know what they're doing. Hatters think they know what a Derby looks like, but unless they've handled ones prior to 1940, they really don't know how to make them. It's not just an open crown hat with curled, bound edged brim.
It's much more unique and special than that.

Brad

I have to agree with Brad. I've seen plenty of hatters say they can do a proper bowler, yet they tend to fall short at the brim style (and the crown). I don't know of a US hatter that can do the brim correctly. Last shop I spoke to was Paul's hat works. Showed them the information then haven't heard back. But as you can see on their website and on Optimo's, an edge that was once common and (I'm guessing) easier to do out of the materials and skills available, is now a lost art in a way.

This like the Cavanagh edge is why vintage hats are... well let's just say awesome.

I want my D'Orsay curl!

 

[mayserwegener]

It appears the art of making them (Bowler, Derby, Melone, ect) went out some time in the 1960s. There is also the major issue of getting the felt correct. Modern Bowlers (Derbies, Melone, ect) are just stiffer soft felt hats.

 

[newturnofphrase]

Hey, not sure this is 100% relevant to bowlers/derbys due to the differences in the physical materials they're made of, but I successfully replaced the brim binding on a top hat last year. The final attachment of the ribbon after you flip it out is different because you cannot just stitch it to marino on a bowler, so while the last step may be more difficult, the operations overall should be basically the same.

http://torontotophats.wordpress.com/2011/10/26/how-to-replace-a-damaged-brim-binding/

One important thing to remember is that almost NO modern hatters still have genuine silk hat ribbon these days, which was still being used on the brims of bowlers and toppers until mid-century. You'll probably have to locate a replacement ribbon yourself. Mokuba has something fairly similar, but you can only get it in-store.

 

[The Wiser Hatter]

Great job on writing up the tutorial.

 

[bobx]

Edge trim done

I finally finished replacing the edge trim ribbon on my bowler. I hand stitched it and it required several different techniques to keep the stitches hidden. For one type of stitch I had to use 2 fine sewing machine needles and rethread them for every stitch. Here is the before and after pictures. Thanks to everyone who helped me.

Bob

 

[mayserwegener]

Looks good! Do you have any photos of the stitching on the bottom side of the brim? Did you use the Mokuba ribbon?

 

[bobx]

More info

Yes I used the Mokuba ribbon. Here is a picture of the stitching. Is this the area you wanted to see?

Bob

 

[newturnofphrase]

Yes I used the Mokuba ribbon. Here is a picture of the stitching. Is this the area you wanted to see?

Bob

Great job! Looks amazing!

 

[mayserwegener]

Thanks! I think I see some diagonal stitches center to right. Is it stitched like this all the way around the brim?

 

[bobx]

Even more pictures

I used 3 different stitches to attach the ribbon.

The first picture shows the stitch that I used to first attach the ribbon to the inside of the brim.

I used 2 different stitches to attache the ribbon to the outside of the brim.

The next picture shows the stitch I used at the front and back of the hat. This stitch was used because the stitches can be seen on both sides.

The last picture shows the stitch I used at the sides of the hat. The inside part of this stitch is hidden from view so it can be long.

 

[mayserwegener]

Thank you for the detailed drawings. Is this how the original binding was applied? I will have to look closer at one of mine (currently on travel). The Mokuba ribbon appears to be a great match. Also how long did it take? Again great job!

 

[bobx]

Took a long time

The sewing took several days for me to finish because I did a little at a time.

I tried to replicate the original stitches. I used the original stitch holes for the stitches which held the ribbon to the top of the hat brim. I believe I accomplished that except for one exception. The stitch shown in my second diagram was somewhat different than the original. The original stitch did not penetrate completely through the hat brim. It appeared to go partially through the brim. When I removed the original stitches I examined these stitches carefully with a magnifying glass but was unable to determine how they were done. When I attempted to replicate these stitches I could not. If i made a shallow purchase into the felt the stitch would just break through the fabric when I tried to tighten the stitch. If I tried to go deeper into the hat brim with the stitch the brim material was very hard and I could not complete the stitch without going all the way through the brim to the other side. So I ended up stitching all the way through the hat brim producing a small stitch visible on the top side of the brim.

I did not have an awl so I made a couple using very fine sewing machine needles. The stitch in the 3rd drawing took 2 awls to make. I could not use a regular needle for 2 reasons. First it would have been too hard to push the needle through the brim from under the curl on the side of the hat. Second it would be too hard for me to accurately locate where to push the needle through from inside of the curled brim so that I would come through at the correct spot in the ribbon. The method I used is as follows. Have an awl threaded with a short piece thread. Push the awl through the ribbon and the brim from the outside of the hat. Open up the thread at the eye of the awl and pass the main thread through the thread in the awl. Pull the awl out to draw the main thread through the hole. Thread the second awl with the main thread and push it through the ribbon then the hat brim from the outside of the brim. Pull the thread through the hole, pull out the awl, un-thread the awl, pull the thread all the way through the hole. Move on to the next thread location and repeat.

Bob

 

[mayserwegener]

Bob, Thank you for the detailed explanation! I can see why it took so long to replicate. It would be interesting to see how they did it back in the day. I don't recall ever seeing a detailed discription (written or filmed).