Borsalino Befuddlement

[HarpPlayerGene]

Today, I missed on a great looking grey 1940s Borsalino Trionfo listed on EB. I believe its 'vintageness' since it is just like a dark blue one I already have which was made in 1935.

{OK, fess up. Which one of youz guyz got it?...}

Anyway, one of the things which threw me off a little at the last minute (and something I should have thought of and emailed the seller about days ago) was the size on the tag in the hat:

Tag size was 7. But the hat appeared to be made for domestic Italian retail sale. I think the haberdashery it had printed on the band was right in Rome - same as Borsa'.

So, does that mean for certain that the hat was equivalent to a 7-5/8?? My experience is that Borsa' size 4-1/2 = the size 7 we are accustomed to here in the states. OR, is it possible, by some stroke, that it was a size 7 roughly equaling 56 cm or apprx. 22" inside?

Educate me, oh wisened hat sages.

G

 

[HarpPlayerGene]

Jeez guys...

Something I said?

I'm underwhelmed at the participation in this one.

*tap, tap, tap* "Is this thing on?"

G

 

[surely]

well, come on oh baby cheek yugum. the problem lies in knowing for certain; now that is an epistemological question that takes careful consideration. in due course all shall be revealed.

 

[J.T.Marcus]

I have a hat chart which says the French size 7 would be an American 7 5/8.
You seem to think the Italian market used the French system for hats sold in Italy. Have you run across other examples of this?

http://www.hatlife.com/headsize.php

 

[Stoney]

I have seen those "new" vintage hats from Bulgaria on e-bay which use the same size system. One Italian Borsalino that I acquired had a size 4 or 4 1/2 tag in it. I can't remember which it was. Unfortunately this is the one that I left on the lamp too long and ending up scorching the sweatband :eusa_doh: , which I am now replacing. The size tag is long gone. Of course this one may have been sold in France.

 

[J.T.Marcus]

well, come on oh baby cheek yugum. the problem lies in knowing for certain; now that is an epistemological question that takes careful consideration. in due course all shall be revealed.

I think I flunked epistemology!

 

[surely]

Ah ha, you think you flunked but you don't know whether you did.

 

[HarpPlayerGene]

Now We're Talkin'

I have a hat chart which says the French size 7 would be an American 7 5/8.
You seem to think the Italian market used the French system for hats sold in Italy. Have you run across other examples of this?

http://www.hatlife.com/headsize.php

Yup, I have a size "4-1/2" blue Borsalino from the Zophia, Bulgaria stash. It fits my size 7 head just fine. I didn't know that was a French designation, though. Assumed it was something Italian.

SO, I guess it depends on where the hat was shipped to be sold, huh?. Maybe the one I recently lost out on was a real size 7 which would have fit me. That's not helping me feel better about not budding enough!

Thanks folks,

Gene

 

[tonyb]

I believe that sizing scale is called "Punti." Good enough word, I suppose, but don't give it anyone as a nickname or anything.

 

[mineral]

Yup, I have a size "4-1/2" blue Borsalino from the Zophia, Bulgaria stash. It fits my size 7 head just fine. I didn't know that was a French designation, though. Assumed it was something Italian.

SO, I guess it depends on where the hat was shipped to be sold, huh?. Maybe the one I recently lost out on was a real size 7 which would have fit me. That's not helping me feel better about not budding enough!

Thanks folks,

Gene

If I remember correctly, there was a Borsalino hat auctioned off at ebay that was sold originally in Italy but had American sizing. Given the certain existence of advertising in English for shops selling Borsalino hats in Italy in the past and given that shops like Luzzi in Rome was right near the Termini (where tourists would presumably be), it would probably be safer to ask the seller to give you a circumference measurement rather than risk disappointment.

 

[HarpPlayerGene]

If I remember correctly, there was a Borsalino hat auctioned off at ebay that was sold originally in Italy but had American sizing. Given the certain existence of advertising in English for shops selling Borsalino hats in Italy in the past and given that shops like Luzzi in Rome was right near the Termini (where tourists would presumably be), it would probably be safer to ask the seller to give you a circumference measurement rather than risk disappointment.

Yeah, I thought of the idea that the "7" might not be my size 7 with only 15 minutes left in the auction - no time to start emailing questions to the seller at that point. DOH!

This thread has elicited some very interesting and useful information for me. Thanks to all, especially you and J.T. I couldn't have expected better feedback and I appreciate it.

P.S. Stoney -
I assume you are referring to the Bulgarian Borsalino controversy which I've heard sketchy notions about. Counterfeits? The hats I've got are of such fine construction and have such an authentic old vibe that it's hard to believe they aren't vintage. I got them from a very reputable seller and I have 44 hats in my collection (about half from 40s and 50s) for comparison to what a genuinely vintage hat "feels" like.

I am really interested in learning more about this subject. I wouldn't put it past some people to try to put things past others but these hats are of such amazing quality construction and detail that it seems one would have to invest a lot of capital to generate a counterfeit that sells for less or about the same as a new, off-the-assembly line hat from one of todays big companies.

Check the photos of mine in the links below and guys, let me know what you think about their potential for authenticity. Maybe this should be a thread of its own but I'm OK with stringing it along under the original heading of "Borsalino Befuddlement". Seems appropriate enough, no?
http://s261.photobucket.com/albums/ii79/harpplayergene/BrownBorsalino1930/
http://s261.photobucket.com/albums/ii79/harpplayergene/Blue Borsalino 1935/

 

[carouselvic]

I do not believe your hats are counterfeit, I also do not believe that they are from the 30's....not even close.

 

[HarpPlayerGene]

I do not believe your hats are counterfeit, I also do not believe that they are from the 30's....not even close.

Well, do tell.

I'm interested in learing more. How do you know what era they are from? What date do you think?

I only base my 1930 and 1935 guess on two things:
1) According to the disputed lore, some Borsolinos were supplied to a particular haberdashery in Zophia, Bulgaria which, in the early stages of - or during - Europe's experience with WWII, was shut down and locked up with a stock of hats inside. Supposedly, they remained for years until discovered a decade or two ago. These hats bear the stamp of that store and WWII broke out in Europe well before our 1941 declaration on Japan and Germany's declaration on the U.S.
2) I have read on this site that with vintage Borsalinos, the first two numbers in the seriel number indicate the year of manufacture. Some have reported their numbers to be of the kind that really don't make sense as a year, but the "30.." and the "35.." on my hats sort of support the 'early-stages-of-WWII-in-Europe' story. In fact, the one beginning in "30.." appears to probably have been sold and circulated rather than having been stored where the other one is pristine. An interesting detail to me considering the relative dates as they apply to war history.

In any event, I am not hung up on deluding myself about it. I readily admit that the story is a lot to swallow. I really would just like to learn more about what may be the facts.

So far, I've read clues that some posters hint at doubt about "new" vintage hats and you have shared what you think my hats are not. I am intriged by the hints and the omissions in your posts folks. However, they leave me with the want for more than that.

I'm going to risk starting a new thread on this so perhaps more opinions can chime in. I hope that's OK. Look for it under the heading: "Believe It Or Not Borsalinos". Future respones to this thread should visit that posting and pick it up from there if you're willing.

This site has got to be the best bet for me to learn about this. I'm all eyes and ears folks.....

G

 

[AlanC]

There's no way those are fake Borsalinos. It's not like these are Louis Vuitton purses.

Bartender cap on: Why is that you need a new thread with essentially the same name about the same hats? I can edit the thread title of this one if you want.