Born in a suit?

[Tomasso]

 

[Undertow]

lol :eusa_clap

 

[Baron Kurtz]

Yes, the aesthetically challenged are everywhere to be found. [huh] It's almost an absurdist stance, distinctly authoritarian … and entirely without basis.

Mi dispiace ma there are indeed rules (rigidly enforced conventions) as to what should be worn with what, and when. If you fail to adhere to them while in the company of those who know them, you are likely to suffer for it.

There are places and times at which blue suits may be worn, at which only black shoes are appropriate. There are people who will consider you gauche if you ever wear brown shoes with a blue suit (although there are fewer of them now than there once were, and apparently few of them live in Italy). If you don't care, that's fine for you, unless one of those people happens to be your boss, a client or customer, a member of a club you hope to be invited join, or your prospective father-in-law.

 

[Tomasso]

Mi dispiace ma there are indeed rules (rigidly enforced conventions) as to what should be worn with what, and when.

lol You've gotta get out of that dark room; and quit watching those old newsreels.

 

[Richard Warren]

Presumptuous persons are everywhere to be found. I have said very little (if anything) about my own tastes, or what I wear or like, yet you seem to know all about me.

Societal conventions of dress have very little to do with aesthetics, and much to do with semiotics.

Authoritarian? Do you know what the word means?

 

[Tomasso]

you seem to know all about me.

It was just a wild guess....Really.[huh]

 

[Richard Warren]

Well, another social convention, that of courtesy, generally discourages one from making wild guesses about others in public.

No need to apologize, I forgive you.

Just to put the matter to rest, you have my assurance that I do in fact have excellent taste and dress quite well (if not always in strict compliance with convention).

And, for the record, it was not I that turned the direction of this post towards my personal aesthetic sensibilities.

So, to return to the original subject, I advance the proposition that those who look most natural and best in suits are simply those who enjoy wearing them.

 

[Mid-fogey]

These rules...

…come and go. I too was raised to think that you wore black shoes with blue and grey suits, although you could fudge with cordovan. I began to wonder when a New York lawyer friend of mine showed me a picture of JFK wearing a blue suit and brown shoes.

Since then, looking over various FL threads, I’ve come to see that it’s OK. I can’t really bring myself to do it, but I’m convinced.

I think so few people know any of the “rules” on hat wear, suit wear, or anything else that I doubt most people would know if you did something wrong – whatever that might mean.

If people are uncomfortable in a suit, it seems they are unsure if they are doing things right. Now that suits are seen as occasional costumes rather than everyday clothing, people just don't wear them enough to be sure of themselves.

I saw a great picture of Thomas Edison taking a nap in a suit after a marathon session of work. Talk about comfortable in a suit.

 

[Baron Kurtz]

In clarification.

Authoritarian? Do you know what the word means?

Sure, no doubt as well as or better than you. One with an authoritarian personality would slavishly follow …

… (rigidly enforced conventions) as to what should be worn with what, and when. …

But the point I was making is that such conventions, and the groups of people who would impose them, have more than the slightest whiff of authoritarianism, and certainly absurdity. A subtle distinction and one which I failed to edit when submitting my earlier post.

I made no suggestion that you were one of either of these types of people, and I understand of course, that there are some silly clubs out there with rigid dress conventions. But we're talking about every day life. It would be a rather foolish person who took the rules of his club to be "correct" or a general "rule", and judged people accordingly. And an even more foolish person who would listen to such drivel. (Again I don't accuse you here. I shouldn't have to clarify this, but there you go. People will choose to take offense for dramatic effect.) For the record, I am often not convinced by brown with grey or blue. But the right brown with the right grey or blue can look fantastic. I have blue suits that I would never wear any of my brown shoes with, because the colours do not work well together. But had I the right shade of brown shoe, the suits would look fantastic when matched with them.


And again, to put this to rest and get back to the purpose of the thread. Look at the list that was come up with. Largely peripheral stuff that doesn't matter a jot if one has a badly fitting suit and/or no sense of colour co-ordination, proportion and a reasonably accurate self image. (i.e. not one of these people who think that everything they do looks good; people who just can't see the difference between a good and bad ensemble, if they are in it. If they are in it, it must be good. There are a surprising number of these people around.)

bk

 

[Nick D]

I read somewhere in a trade journal awhile back that men should not wear brown shoes at all because "the public does not trust men who wear brown shoes"[huh] . I would like to know where they got the information.

And I've heard you should never trust a man in a bowtie [huh] I don't know where these things come from, either.

Wearing a dark blue suit and bowtie today, but no brown shoes, black with light gray canvas spats. Does that make me more or less trustworthy?

 

[Richard Warren]

Sure, no doubt as well as or better than you. One with an authoritarian personality would slavishly follow …



But the point I was making is that such conventions, and the groups of people who would impose them, have more than the slightest whiff of authoritarianism, and certainly absurdity. A subtle distinction and one which I failed to edit when submitting my earlier post.

I made no suggestion that you were one of either of these types of people, and I understand of course, that there are some silly clubs out there with rigid dress conventions. But we're talking about every day life. It would be a rather foolish person who took the rules of his club to be "correct" or a general "rule", and judged people accordingly. And an even more foolish person who would listen to such drivel. (Again I don't accuse you here. I shouldn't have to clarify this, but there you go. People will choose to take offense for dramatic effect.) For the record, I am often not convinced by brown with grey or blue. But the right brown with the right grey or blue can look fantastic. I have blue suits that I would never wear any of my brown shoes with, because the colours do not work well together. But had I the right shade of brown shoe, the suits would look fantastic when matched with them.


And again, to put this to rest and get back to the purpose of the thread. Look at the list that was come up with. Largely peripheral stuff that doesn't matter a jot if one has a badly fitting suit and/or no sense of colour co-ordination, proportion and a reasonably accurate self image. (i.e. not one of these people who think that everything they do looks good; people who just can't see the difference between a good and bad ensemble, if they are in it. If they are in it, it must be good. There are a surprising number of these people around.)

bk

My attempt to disarm through self-deprecating humor seems to have failed. You are correct that I did "choose" to take offense at the insinuation that I am aesthetically challenged. I'm glad you appreciated the dramatic effect. But I got over it and I forgive you too.

I did misunderstand your use of the word authoritarian. I took it to mean that you thought I liked to tell other people what to do. I am aware after looking it up that there is a usage of the word to describe a personality type that to the contrary likes to be told what to do. While this usage appears to be common, it seems to me to be of dubious intellectual provenance (that is to say, formulated to kick the Germans after they lost the war--which is actually fine with me, by the way-- and to exonerate collectivism itself from the horrible things the Germans had done--a more dubious proposition). Still, authoritarian regimes (it seems to me) exist not because some people like to slavish follow, but because some gather power to impose their will on the rest. The authoritarians to me are the wolves, not the sheep.

I believe in any event that social conventions are the antithesis of authoritarianism in any reasonable sense of the word in that they are arrived at by frequently tacit agreement among a freely acting group of people. A species of spontaneous order, if you will. No one observing polite conventions seeks to impose them on others. They do reserve and exercise the right to make personal judgments of others based on the comportment, dress, and address of said others. One follows them not because of slavish obedience but from convenience, respect, or even self-interest. Among other things they are a sort of communication that is of course understood only by those who share the language.

The fact that such conventions and their followers (a fair word) may strike you as authoritarian and absurd just does not mean that they do not exist. It seems to be an unfortunate aspect of the post-modern world that we are told to believe that reality itself is culturally constructed, while denying the importance or even the existence of those parts of reality which are precisely that.

 

[Richard Warren]

And I've heard you should never trust a man in a bowtie [huh] I don't know where these things come from, either.

Wearing a dark blue suit and bowtie today, but no brown shoes, black with light gray canvas spats. Does that make me more or less trustworthy?

I do not mean this personally, but I have a business associate who regularly makes disparaging comments about people wearing bow ties. You might say he is a closed minded bigot, and you would probably be right. But he is not alone. (I am not saying there is a rule against wearing bow ties. I have simply observed a prejudice against them.)

I have also seen a young man mocked to his face for wearing brown shoes. Not something I would do or approve of, but there it is. (Actually, I think the mocker sort of had good intentions, to discourage a repeat performance).

 

[Undertow]

I do not mean this personally, but I have a business associate who regularly makes disparaging comments about people wearing bow ties. You might say he is a closed minded bigot, and you would probably be right. But he is not alone. (I am not saying there is a rule against wearing bow ties. I have simply observed a prejudice against them.)

I have also seen a young man mocked to his face for wearing brown shoes. Not something I would do or approve of, but there it is. (Actually, I think the mocker sort of had good intentions, to discourage a repeat performance).

Oh sure, there are bullies everywhere. There's are also idiots everywhere. I'm not insinuating a correlation, but...

And when it comes to bow ties, there is a particular disdain because people are already apprehensive if you're wearing a tie, but a bow tie; well you most certainly must be {enter insulting adjective completely unrelated to context}!

 

[undertaker]

And I've heard you should never trust a man in a bowtie [huh]

Oh dear! I wear one almost every day. Wearing the bowtie has never seemed to cast a shadow of doubt over my trustworthiness, however I did have a fellow minster ban me from his pulpit because I wore a bowtie.

Regards,
J.S.

 

[Richard Warren]

The decline of the bow tie over the last several decades is unfortunate. Perhaps it has something to do with young men being taught to wear long ties in the military? Maybe people are jealous and feel inadequate because they cannot tie them. I could see how bow ties could represent an element of elitism. I do not see how trustworthiness comes into play (unless people just distrust the unfamiliar), or theology.

 

[JimWagner]

Can't say I care for bow ties myself. I suspect that my aversion to them comes from growing up in the 50's and seeing them associated with let's say less assertive men. A bow tie and a crew cut were the essence of bottom rung office workers, the kind with almost no chance of advancement. Weak. Or gas station attendants. Or tweedy academics. Or overly fussy men. Or children.

But that was then.

 

[Edward]

Or tweedy academics. Or overly fussy men.

Hey! I resemble that remark!

Oh dear! I wear one almost every day. Wearing the bowtie has never seemed to cast a shadow of doubt over my trustworthiness, however I did have a fellow minster ban me from his pulpit because I wore a bowtie.

Regards,
J.S.

So was it the bow or the lack of dog collar that caused offence??

The decline of the bow tie over the last several decades is unfortunate. Perhaps it has something to do with young men being taught to wear long ties in the military? Maybe people are jealous and feel inadequate because they cannot tie them. I could see how bow ties could represent an element of elitism. I do not see how trustworthiness comes into play (unless people just distrust the unfamiliar), or theology.

Many years ago, I first learned to tie my own bow tie in preparation for a then-girlfriend's graduation ball. She knew I was doing it and spent many hours the week before rolling her eyes and bitterly criticising me for it to her housemates and friends (as I later discovered). A year later after we split she still saw this as somehow a valid grounds of bitter criticism. Never could figure it out myself. Glad she's gone!

 

[Nick D]

Hey! I resemble that remark!

Me as well!

 

[Richard Warren]

Can't say I care for bow ties myself. I suspect that my aversion to them comes from growing up in the 50's and seeing them associated with let's say less assertive men. A bow tie and a crew cut were the essence of bottom rung office workers, the kind with almost no chance of advancement. Weak. Or gas station attendants. Or tweedy academics. Or overly fussy men. Or children.

But that was then.

That's interesting. Bow ties seem to have a certain effete connotation, but I associate it not with the downtrodden but with the "highly civilized."

 

[Lone_Ranger]

Can't say I care for bow ties myself. I suspect that my aversion to them comes from growing up in the 50's and seeing them associated with let's say less assertive men. A bow tie and a crew cut were the essence of bottom rung office workers, the kind with almost no chance of advancement. Weak. Or gas station attendants. Or tweedy academics. Or overly fussy men. Or children.

But that was then.

I grew up in the 70's and associated them with certain elementary school teachers. Like you said.

But, then again, Ed Harris, as John Glenn, in The Right Stuff, comes to mind. A Marine with bow tie and flat top; Glenn wasn't exactly an underachiever.

I remember pictures of certain western highway patrol units, that wear bow ties as part of their uniform. Mostly the motor officers. (wont flap wildly in the wind like a regular tie.) I guess wearing it with a leather jacket, and helmet takes away from the academic look.