Bootleg vintage hats

[AbridgedPause]

Have any of you heard of, or come across, "bootleg" or copied top-line hats from the 1900's? You know how today you have all these "discount stores" in the poorer areas of big cities, usually operated by immigrants, and that cater to other immigrants or tourists (I'm not sure how else to say that without offending somebody out there. But let's keep personal feelings out of this, I'm not trying to start an argument). Those dingy shops sell fake Aldo shoes, cheap replicas of Tommy Hilfiger, American Eagle or Old Navy jeans, and look-alike Levi's leather belts. All of the clothes they sell have the companies' official logos sewn in the fabric or engraved in the leather, and they're all labeled as brand new and of the season. But they sell them for half the price. Apparently these bootleg clothes are made on the black market in sweatshops on the cheap. As any of you (myself included) have come to know after purchasing this amazingly-priced merchandise, it just never fits right. Usually your left side is a different length than your right side, and you're lucky if the stitching doesn't fall out after a few washings.

To get to my question. These bootleg clothes replicate the top brands of our era. It seems logical to me that people were probably doing the same thing 50 years ago with the top brands of their era. Have their been fake Stetson or Resistol hats spotted, and could we even tell the difference after all this time?

 

[Edward]

It's plausible that it happened, probably as soon as Trade Marks - which evolved originally as a means of indicating origin of goods - evolved into 'brands' which were desired. I should imagine in those days it was probably easier to some extent to spot a fake (save a really good one), as opposed to these days when everything is outsourced. I've been in all the big fake product markets in Beijing, and they constantly amaze as to how good afake so many things are these days. Some are obvious, even if decent quality (the Rolexes and Lorexes especially...). Other goods, particularly clothes of a type and brand that are generally made in China to begin with, are indistinguishable from the real thing - often because the Chinese factory to whom manufacture has been outsourced may have doubled up the order and sent half of it out the back door.... Back in the day, when goods like Levis were made in the US / UK / wherever, it would have been less compasring like for like, and thus presumably a fake would have given itself away easier. Interesting notion, though....

 

[viclip]

The Swiss were merrily counterfeiting American pocket watches in the later 1800s. Of inferior quality, nevertheless these Swiss fakes were often difficult to spot. Off the top of my head I'd say that a qualtiy American pocket watch would have cost from one week's to one or more month's wages so there would have been a market for the Swiss knock-offs amongst the working poor. I'm not sure how that relates to the cost of a good name-brand hat back in the day.

Of course fake Swiss pocket watches have become collectible in some circles these days, together with so-called "dollar watches". Go figure.

 

[Bob Roberts]

So Moon's Flagships are knockoffs...?

 

[moontheloon]

So Moon's Flagships are knockoffs...?

hahahaha ... hell yeah they are ...

 

[moontheloon]

Have any of you heard of, or come across, "bootleg" or copied top-line hats from the 1900's? You know how today you have all these "discount stores" in the poorer areas of big cities, usually operated by immigrants, and that cater to other immigrants or tourists (I'm not sure how else to say that without offending somebody out there. But let's keep personal feelings out of this, I'm not trying to start an argument). Those dingy shops sell fake Aldo shoes, cheap replicas of Tommy Hilfiger, American Eagle or Old Navy jeans, and look-alike Levi's leather belts. All of the clothes they sell have the companies' official logos sewn in the fabric or engraved in the leather, and they're all labeled as brand new and of the season. But they sell them for half the price. Apparently these bootleg clothes are made on the black market in sweatshops on the cheap. As any of you (myself included) have come to know after purchasing this amazingly-priced merchandise, it just never fits right. Usually your left side is a different length than your right side, and you're lucky if the stitching doesn't fall out after a few washings.

To get to my question. These bootleg clothes replicate the top brands of our era. It seems logical to me that people were probably doing the same thing 50 years ago with the top brands of their era. Have their been fake Stetson or Resistol hats spotted, and could we even tell the difference after all this time?

it would cost way too much to create a halfway decent bootleg ... and even then they would fool very very few

you just cannot replicate the quality of hats made then ... and if you did get close you may as well just open your own hat shop and sell legit hats because you would probably be closer than all the hat companies that currently exist and would make a killing

 

[belfastboy]

Have any of you heard of, or come across, "bootleg" or copied top-line hats from the 1900's? You know how today you have all these "discount stores" in the poorer areas of big cities, usually operated by immigrants, and that cater to other immigrants or tourists (I'm not sure how else to say that without offending somebody out there. But let's keep personal feelings out of this, I'm not trying to start an argument). Those dingy shops sell fake Aldo shoes, cheap replicas of Tommy Hilfiger, American Eagle or Old Navy jeans, and look-alike Levi's leather belts. All of the clothes they sell have the companies' official logos sewn in the fabric or engraved in the leather, and they're all labeled as brand new and of the season. But they sell them for half the price. Apparently these bootleg clothes are made on the black market in sweatshops on the cheap. As any of you (myself included) have come to know after purchasing this amazingly-priced merchandise, it just never fits right. Usually your left side is a different length than your right side, and you're lucky if the stitching doesn't fall out after a few washings.

To get to my question. These bootleg clothes replicate the top brands of our era. It seems logical to me that people were probably doing the same thing 50 years ago with the top brands of their era. Have their been fake Stetson or Resistol hats spotted, and could we even tell the difference after all this time?

My first thought that popped up....No, it likely did not happen back then as China was not manufacturing. It seems to me there is an inextricable link with "fake" goods (I have a Hugo Boos shirt) and Chinese manufacture.

 

[Wesslyn]

Theres always been hat brands sorta ripping each other off. Whippet clones, OR clones, etc. Seems to me they were trying to make the superior hat and therefore trying to make their company the biggest name in hats.
As for counterfeit Stetsons and the like, I'm with Moon. A good hatter would have been better off with their own company.

 

[moehawk]

So Moon's Flagships are knockoffs...?

Yeah...they knock us off our feet...

 

[Bob Roberts]

Yeah...they knock us off our feet...

You bet. Good one Moe!

 

[AbridgedPause]

Very good feedback on this. Thanks to all who pitched in!
Just to clarify, I don't mean people replicated old hats today and calling them vintage when they're new. I was inquiring about bootlegs being made back in the day, in the 40s and 50s, and being sold as Stetson, while they could have actually been made in some other guys tailor shop in Brooklyn, you know.

 

[AbridgedPause]

In response to people doubting that hats were ever "bootlegged", or "faked" in the olden days, here's an instance when it indeed happened and the bootleggers were caught.
This article dates from April of 1921 when two separate local Montreal hat companies were caught using Buckley sweat bands on their hats in order to sell them off as Buckley hats.
For those who don't know, Buckley was the leading hat manufacturer in the province of Quebec, Canada from the late 1800's to the 1960's. Buckley's reputation in Quebec was equal to Biltmore's in Ontario, Canada, Stetson's in the USA (minus the higher price), or Borsalino in Italy.

In Quebec, Buckley was tops and was for a long time what people referred to as a "hat", in the same way that people call hats "Stetsons" in the USA and "Akubras" in Australia.
So if companies were "bootlegging" Buckley hats in Quebec, Canada, then it's totally possible that companies were "bootlegging" Stetson hats in the USA, or any other brands.

If any of those unofficial Buckley hats ever found their way on eBay today, there would be absolutely no way to tell if they were made at the Buckley hat factory or by one of the unauthorized companies.
That was the point I was trying to make when I brought up the topic last year.

 

[Mustang Mike's Hats]

Nowadays, 3rd world countries (so to speak) pull that number with all sorts of apparel. Some folks will buy those items knowing full well that they're fake, just to save a few bucks so they can look "kewl"

 

[steur]

You wouldn't make a bootleg hat to fool the aficionados here at the lounge but rather the masses that have no clue what a quality hat looks or feels like, but just want to be associated with the brand, indeed because it looks "kewl". Interesting observation I made this week: I had three Borsalinos on auction this week. Two fantastic quality vintage ones from the fifties and one from 1999 with the brand name in gold on the ribbon. The one with the brand name fetched 2,5 times the amount compared to the others. So stick the Borsalino brand name in gold foil on the ribbon of a brandless cheap hat and you're in business.

 

[Edward]

My first thought that popped up....No, it likely did not happen back then as China was not manufacturing. It seems to me there is an inextricable link with "fake" goods (I have a Hugo Boos shirt) and Chinese manufacture.

The Far East doesn't have the same, centuries-old tradition of intellectual property that we do in the Western traditions. I've never been convinced it's a 'Chinese thing' so much as it's a 'where manufacture is cheap' thing, which currently happens to be Chin, but increasingly is India and doubtless will be Africa before too many more years are out.

 

[AbridgedPause]

I have found a very interesting article in relation to the bootlegging of Buckley hats in Canada from 1921, which follows the article that I previously posted above two months ago. It appears that the infamous bootleggers of Buckley hats, those who put fake "Buckley" sweatbands on their own inferior quality hats, were none other than the two brothers who owned Magill Hats / Magill Hat Manufacturing.

That's the same Magill Hats company that's still around in Montreal. They've been mentioned and criticized over and over again on the Fedora Lounge by Loungers who had the misfortune of ordering their awful hats. I have been to their factory on Saint-Lawrence Boulevard in Montreal and the employees/current owners are some seriously shady and arrogant people. What they claim to be beaver felt is anything but. The quality of hats they manufacture make Bailey hats look high-quality. So I am pleased to share this article with you fellow Loungers and add to the ongoing list of their shady past. If you go to their website, they boast about their ancestor Isidor Magill who founded the company in 1895. I wonder if they knew he was a fink.

This is a print screen of the article which appeared in Le Devoir, a francophone Montreal newspaper in April of 1921. I have translated the article for you fellow loungers bellow.

"THEY CONFESS. Isidore and Jacob Magill, accused of having usurped the English trademark of Buckley, and of having used it on hats of their manufacture, appeared this morning before Judge Leet and confessed their guilt. The Drouin company, which is the sole distributor of Buckley hats in Montreal, has agreed to hand over the hats back to the accused, provided, however, that the trademark's signage is removed and that the accused pay the fees of the court. Mr. O-P Dorais represented the plaintiffs and Mr. J.-A. Budyk represented the accused."

I will even provide the direct link to the newspaper: http://numerique.banq.qc.ca/patrimoine/details/52327/2800853?docsearchtext=buckley drouin

 

[redlinerobert]

I once bought a Hugo Boss suit at a 2nd hand shop and when I arrived home realized that the label said Boss Hogg.

 

[Just Jim]

Years ago, I saw a Western-ish hat with a very nicely faked Stetson sweatband. The big giveaway was that the sweat was made of "composition leather"--the leather equivalent of particle board. But a neat hat, probably made in Russia or East Germany.