Black Tie

[benstephens]

Following a discussion about the etiiqutte wearing Black Tie on Jovans thread, I thought I would continue the disscussion here.

My main area of research is English male dress ettiqutte in the 1930s and 1940s.

I was reading my 1929 Etiquette for men book. This is an English book. It states that in the past few years people have been starting to wear White waistcoats with Black tie, however, this is not really become popular and one should wear a black waist coat. It does give guide lines on wearinga white waistcoat with black tie, but it gives these in a rather derogatory tone.

That link is very interesting Peter, I am reading through now.

Kindest Reagrds

Ben

 

[benstephens]

Peter. Here is an interesting quote from the site

"The white waistcoat has at last been allowed to rejoin its lawful but long estranged mate, the tailcoat, and the new dinner jackets are matched with a waistcoat of the jacket material, with dull grosgrain lapel facing."

This is responded to with

"However, Emily Post begged to differ with this trend. Etiquette's empress was sticking to her guns and continuing to advise that “no super-fashionable New Yorker, unless short of funds to pay his laundress, wears any but a white waistcoat.” Judging by illustrations from this time period, Mrs. Post was clearly fighting a losing battle."

It is interesting that Miss Post comments on the Fashionable New Yorker, and the Author has commented that contemporary sources show that most pictures show the former rather than the latter.

Kindest Regards

Ben

 

[Baron Kurtz]

This from Esquire's Encylopaedia of 20th Century Men's Fashions. In the section "Formal Evening Wear - 1920-1930".

Reporting from London to Men's Wear (Apr. 23, 1924, p. 51), a fashion journalist commented on new waistcoat designs favoured by the best-dressed men: A double breasted evening waistcoat with an oval opening, a double-breasted waistcoat with a square opening, and a single breasted model with a soft-roll collar. As he saw it, the white evening waistcoat, particularly the backless model, was now accepted in London as correct for wear with the tuxedo since such trend setters as the Prince of Wales and Lord Louis Mountbatten had taken it up. What was good enough for the Prince was more than good enough for fashionable Americans.

bk

 

[Jovan]

Backless? :eusa_doh: To me, that's akin to wearing a ready-tied bow tie.

 

[benstephens]

Thank you Baron,

That fits nicely in with the evidence that this was more of a 1920s phenomenon, that began to die out in the 1930s.

I think the 1930s in England wee much more elaborate, with fashions such as Oxford Bags, fancy blazers etc being worn, but for only relatively short time periods.

Kindest Regards

Ben

 

[benstephens]

I think Backless Jovan were made because of the shear heat in the large dance hall, and dancing was getting faster, so people became a bit to hot in think wool evening wear!

Ben

 

[Jovan]

See, that is where I would break the rules and go without one altogether. [huh]

 

[Baron Kurtz]

Thank you Baron,

That fits nicely in with the evidence that this was more of a 1920s phenomenon, that began to die out in the 1930s.


Kindest Regards

Ben

Hi Ben,

The last mention of the trend in EEoC20thF is in the caption to an image:

Quoth: Wide peak lapels with satin facings appeared on the fashionable dinner jacket of 1926, which was worn with a wing collar, a black butterfly bow tie, a piqué shirt, a white waistcoat, and patent leather plain-tip evening shoes [SCHEYER-TAILORED FOR OGILVIE AND JACOBS]

seems to have died out mid-20s then.

bk

 

[Marc Chevalier]

Ben and BK, your hunch is correct: white waistcoats became immensely fashionable with tuxes in the mid 1920s, and pretty much disappeared from the scene after the '29 Crash.


The satirical cartoons of John Held, Jr., the preeminent observer of '20s American youth, showed herds of college boys ("sheiks") dressed in tuxes with white waistcoats, both single and double-breasted.

.

 

[cookie]

White Waistcoats

Mustfa Kemal Ataturk - he wore them.

 

[PADDY]

Photos of 30's and 50's tux.

These shots are from private dinner parties, balls and Old School reunions around Edinburgh area in Scotland. Hence the use of military tartan trews in some of the pics.

In the Highland 'Mess Dress' photos, I am wearing a traditional 'black' waistcoat. White just wouldn't look right.

I use a single breasted 50's Tux and a 1930's DB Tux.

 

[Baron Kurtz]

Cookie, are you sure that's not a tailcoat on Ataturk?

Paddy, some great photos . . .

bk

 

[cookie]

Ataturk

Possibly BK... I thought we were talking about low level DB waistcoats tux style.

I love trews... I cannot wait till my sons can wear their inherited tartan from the Hays (ancient or modern).

 

[Baron Kurtz]

nope, specific discussion of white formal wescut with black tie tuxedo attire. Specifically re: when was it popular . . .

bk

 

[cookie]

Ataturk

Is that not what he is wearing in that famous photo you see in every Turkish restaurant?

 

[Baron Kurtz]

which photo is that?

bk

 

[cookie]

Ataturk

One similar to my post.

 

[Baron Kurtz]

that would be white waistcoat with white tie and the other white tie attire, which no-one has any beef with.

bk

 

[Jovan]

I really wish I had worn a pique waistcoat and tie on my prom night. :eusa_doh:

I tend to think white waistcoats look really good with black tie, but only literally black tie. Somehow, I don't really like white ties with a dinner jacket.

 

[Midnight Blue]

It is interesting that Miss Post comments on the Fashionable New Yorker, and the Author has commented that contemporary sources show that most pictures show the former rather than the latter.

Kindest Regards

Ben

Hello again, Ben.

I had inferred from your original post that you were stating that the white weskit was a flash in the pan in the 1920s which is why I wanted to clarify that it continued to appear until as late as the 1970s. However, I agree with your conclusion that this version of the black tie waistcoat was at the peak of its popularity in the 1920s and never again achieved the same kind of status.

On another note, I should clarify that I am the author of the black tie site to which I referred you. One of my goals for the site is to keep it from being entirely American-centric as so many English language web sites seem to be. Once I have made enough posts to allow me to send private messages I will be contacting you to see if you could possibly help me flesh out the British perspective as you seem extremely knowledgeable in this area!

Regards,

Peter