Bill Kelso Westfall in Black Liberty HH

[A-1]

The way BK shrugs off customer concerns is very strange. To me the customer support was great and patient. However, from what I'm reading I'm lucky.

 

[Superfluous]

There is no single "Original" Hercules, it was made in many different styles, and evolved over the years.

Excellent point PWG! There is no one "correct" Hercules pattern. For example, here is an advertisement for an original Sears Hercules jacket:

Note the chest pocket zipper pull.

Here is BK's Hercules repro, which BK states is 100% accurate: https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.862960473734245.1073742089.540638042633158&type=3

Here is a close-up of the chest pocket on BK's 100% accurate Hercules repro:

The chest pocket zipper pull on BK's 100% accurate Hercules repro is indisputably different than the Hercules jacket depicted in Sears original advertisement. Did BK make a mistake? Did BK get it wrong? I suspect not. Rather, I suspect that BK has (or had) an original Sears Hercules jacket with the zipper pull that they reproduced. However, as PWG observed, the Hercules model evolved and changed over time.

Based on the foregoing, there are likely several "correct" Hercules repros, just as their are several "correct" repros of other jackets.

The mistake that I think some manufacturers make is that they build off of a single "original" jacket, and that becomes their absolute.

I am only aware of one company that deems its repros absolutely correct, and all others incorrect.

 

[Sloan1874]

Also, from what little I know of vintage American jackets between 30s and 50s, it's very rare to find ones with exposed zip teeth - the front panels but up against each other to keep out the wind. Not a big deal, as such, but if BK are going to hammer on about their world-beating authenticity, they should be getting this sort of thing right. [huh]

 

[Superfluous]

The way BK shrugs off customer concerns is very strange. To me the customer support was great and patient. However, from what I'm reading I'm lucky.

In BK's defense, Andy offered to fix the excessive sleeve width on my two jackets and, had that been the only issue, I would still own the jackets. Likewise, Andy allowed me to return the two jackets. Therefore, while my dealings with Andy were not always stellar, I would characterize BK's customer service as generally good.

 

[pawineguy]

I am only aware of one company that deems its repros absolutely correct, and all others incorrect.

I am in the same camp, was trying not to try to hit them again by name. I remember when he created a thread on VLJ on which he criticized bit by bit the Aero Hercules, explaining how they would do so much better on the BK version, and calling Aero "lazy." Of course, BK already made the Westfall Hercules, which was similar to Aero's, and BK was then building ANOTHER version of a Hercules jacket. My guess is that you could make 30 or 40 Hercules jackets and they could all be "correct."

 

[pawineguy]

To be fair to them, their latest response, again via FB, as Andy is apparently following this thread:

"We're not bashing the competition just making clear that you will not find this leather elsewhere. We especially developed these leathers to satisfy our customers, give them great quality, the closest to the real thing, something new that no one else can provide. That's not bashing, it's called winning over the competition."

"Just to clarify some more for those who still don't understand. The fact that our newest Liberty horsehide is 100% accurate to vintage horsehide does not mean that our previous horsehide/products were not good enough. They were just about the same good quality or better with what you can find from every other major league manufacturer in the market. Like we said above the new Liberty horsehide is for the purist, high end, hardcore vintage leather jacket fan."

 

[zhz]

I think the BK offers great customer service but bad at public relationship management or lack of sale skills.

 

[thor]

I would think it must be a little disappointing to buy a bespoke leather jacket made of some "ultimate" hide, wait 6+ months for it and then find out that when it arrives the sleeve ends (cuff area) is too wide for your liking or that the manufacturer has in the meantime switched to another, new and improved "ultimate" hide.

 

[zhz]

Also, can we go back to the jacket itself rather than talk about what BK said about their product?

As we all know, the sleeve of this jacket and many other jackets BK made is too wide, if they insist this is the way they want to make it, just tell them to narrow the sleeve down when you order it. Although I hope they can make the sleeve narrower in the future after Andy read this thread.

And as I said, I am happy with sleeve when I am wearing a thick sweater under it, but may ask BK to narrow it down in the future.

 

[Sloan1874]

Quick translation:

"We're not bashing the competition just making clear that you will not find this leather elsewhere."

"Actually, we are bashing the competition, just like we have at every other opportunity. We're praying that you won't find this leather elsewhere."

We especially developed these leathers to satisfy our customers, give them great quality, the closest to the real thing, something new that no one else can provide. That's not bashing, it's called winning over the competition.

"Again, given our track record, you wouldn't expect us to say anything else would you? We're a bit Charlie Sheen, too. #winning"

"Just to clarify some more for those who still don't understand. The fact that our newest Liberty horsehide is 100% accurate to vintage horsehide does not mean that our previous horsehide/products were not good enough. They were just about the same good quality or better with what you can find from every other major league manufacturer in the market. Like we said above the new Liberty horsehide is for the purist, high end, hardcore vintage leather jacket fan."

Just to clarify for those idiots who still don't agree with us, the fact that we're saying the latest leather is 100 per cent scientifically-formulated, copper-bottomed accurate vintage (though you'll have to our word for that) doesn't mean that the rest of the stuff we've done is crap, but you could be forgiven for thinking that from the way we've spoken about it.

Deary me.

 

[handymike]

Let's respect the OP's wishes and keep this about the jacket which isn't made of the new super-hide....

"No, the current batch of black is not made to be 100% repro of vintage. We might do the next one."

There is a whole other thread to discuss the Liberty hide's merits.

 

[Blackadder]

The cuffs are too wide. Not sure about the sleeves as a whole. Perhaps a sideview pic? I have the same problem with non-Japanese makers' jackets. While one may specify the length and width of the jacket, it is difficult to specify the sleeves width. Most of the time we can only ask the makers to "narrow them down". This is one of the major reasons I have switched to Japanese made jackets. Having said that, I am of small build and very thin arms so that is indeed a major problem for me and may not be so for you lot.

 

[Blackadder]

zhz, did you ask BK to shorten the sleeves? Reason I ask is when asked to shorten the sleeves some makers would just cut them short in stead of revising the whole sleeves and the sleeves would not taper as much hence the extra wide cuffs.

 

[zhz]

zhz, did you ask BK to shorten the sleeves? Reason I ask is when asked to shorten the sleeves some makers would just cut them short in stead of revising the whole sleeves and the sleeves would not taper as much hence the extra wide cuffs.

Same as you, I have thin arm as well, and this might a reason it looks wide on me, and shorten the sleeve might be another one.
And the thing is I know this could happen, but I forgot to ask BK to narrow the sleeve.

 

[Blackadder]

Same as you, I have thin arm as well, and this might a reason it looks wide on me, and shorten the sleeve might be another one.
And the thing is I know this could happen, but I forgot to ask BK to narrow the sleeve.

To be fair, this shortening without revising and tapering the sleeves happens to quite a few of the makers. Lost Worlds Ryder my personal experience (it was a made for Japan model), Aero 30s half belt (my friend sent it back for further alteration), Alexander Leather (another friend of mine took it to a local tailor for alteration).

 

[zhz]

To be fair, this shortening without revising and tapering the sleeves happens to quite a few of the makers. Lost Worlds Ryder my personal experience (it was a made for Japan model), Aero 30s half belt (my friend sent it back for further alteration), Alexander Leather (another friend of mine took it to a local tailor for alteration).

thats not a few, your list basically covers all the major makers.

 

[SpeedRcrX]

As I said sooner my cuff doesn't seem that wide.

The sleeves on my jacket have been shortened a lot (58 cm)

I compare the width with my TN Surrogates cuffs, they are the same.

 

[Otter]

That looks good to me, if I want warm hands then I wear gloves.

 

[ausreenactor]

I think the issue stems from the fact you did the HWT on the sleeves. The flat cuff pic shows a normal sleeve taper and no creases. In the later pic with the sleeve creases the cuffs are still looking like they are at the original/normal size. There is no way you can shrink a stitched seam with folds at the same rate. I would only contemplate the HWT on a sleeve where the full length may react.

 

[zhz]

I think the issue stems from the fact you did the HWT on the sleeves. The flat cuff pic shows a normal sleeve taper and no creases. In the later pic with the sleeve creases the cuffs are still looking like they are at the original/normal size. There is no way you can shrink a stitched seam with folds at the same rate. I would only contemplate the HWT on a sleeve where the full length may react.

Actually HWT has nothing to do with it, I can show you the fit pic before I did the HWT if you want.