Bill Kelso dark seal Liberty horse

[Superfluous]

I own three jackets from BK in three different hides, the 'premium' horse, Liberty Horse and Badalssi Steer. All very good jackets, all very good leathers . . .

As I recall, you are affiliated with American Classics, which retails BK jackets. Is that correct? I am not suggesting that anything you stated is incorrect. On the other hand, portraying yourself as an "owner" of three BK jackets and sharing opinions as an "owner" of the jackets, without concurrently acknowledging your inherent partiality/conflict of interest because you also sell the jackets, is, IMHO, slightly disingenuous.

 

[Sloan1874]

As I recall, you are affiliated with American Classics, which retails BK jackets. Is that correct? I am not suggesting that anything you stated is incorrect. On the other hand, portraying yourself as an "owner" of three BK jackets and sharing opinions as an "owner" of the jackets, without concurrently acknowledging your inherent partiality/conflict of interest because you also sell the jackets, is, IMHO, slightly disingenuous.

Exactly what I was about to say. In fact, I seem to recall that American Classics has collaborated on jackets designs with BK.

 

[pawineguy]

I own three jackets from BK in three different hides, the 'premium' horse, Liberty Horse and Badalssi Steer. All very good jackets, all very good leathers, but different. The Liberty is like vintage leather, likely hat found on A-2's and pre-1950's leathers. They can be quite flat, but with wear pop grain, and character, I'll post some pictures of my Hercules in Liberty. I believe I was one of the first to receive this hide and certainly the jacket, so has a bit of wear tonit, and is a joy to wear, the weight is correct to older leathers. And so is the drape. It's does show edge wear, as it was designed to like vintage leathers, this was stated when first being introduced. But also working in retail, you see samples, you say yes, you have a jacket made, you receive it but the leather doesn't have the ideal trophy jacket grain, or weight or colour. Whose responsibility is that?

I think the expectancy is always the best part for most people, but the idea of an ideal might be always put of reach to sole people.

The Liberty is a good leather, same as other high end producers, granted they don't push their achievements with such verbosity as BK, and no it's not a desirable quality, but the product is excellent. If you want a 'substantial' more 'durable' leather look at different manufacturers, get samples of leather. But don't knock a manufacturers leather which is designed to be and sold itself as being the correct weight, and tanning as vintage leathers.

Everyone has an ideal, but before you invest to much in an ideal have a point of reference, be it a vintage jacket, or samples of leather from different sources.

I think the problem that people have with the statements, is that claiming Liberty is the only correct "vintage" leather being produced today is such a disingenuous statement, as if infers that in the 30s, 40s and 50s, there was only one type of horsehide being produced. Thus, only BK's is vintage correct. It's nonsense.

 

[handymike]

Chamboid, I have no doubts that BK can make Phenominal jackets, and that yours are fine examples of that. We've read high praise from folks who have seen them in person at your shop. I'm just a wee bit concerned that there seems to be inconsistencies. The cuff width seems to be an issue with a few jackets, but with only 1 person making them there are few places to point the finger.....
I still want a BK jacket (or 2), but I will take note to request slim sleeves and cuffs when I order.
I must add that Andy has done me a couple of solids, even though I have yet to order a jacket. So my take is that I've had great customer service from BK to now.

 

[zhz]

Lets forget what BK said about their leather, and let the picture talk.
These are two jackets I own from BK, one in Russet Liberty, one in black Liberty.
I took the picture of Russet 2-3 weeks after I received, and the 2 days after for black one. I don't think they look like vinyl or plastic. And I think I can say it is full of grain, right?

 

[handymike]

But that was after the HWT, right ZHZ?

Here's what Liberty should look like in a few years if all goes as planned:

 

[zhz]

But that was after the HWT, right ZHZ?]

The black one is with HWT, but the russet is not. Cant see the pic you shared.

 

[zhz]

I can see the photo now, and I very much hope my jacket will look like this one in few years.
For the black leather, Andy told me this is from their last batch, and they received the new batch last week. According to Andy, the new batch is same as the old batch I have.

 

[chamboid]

Not sure what's disingenous about my statement. Are you sure you mean that Superfilious ? If you do in its true sense, I am frankly a little insulted.

My opinion on the production of the jackets and the company has nothing to do any affiliation I have. The reason BK was stocked in Classics was on my recommendation having owned jackets by this maker.

As for my opinion as a owner, I have compared the leathers to original jackets and other manufacturers, and rate BK highly, if I didn't I wouldn't recommend, nor comment, but insinuation that I am somehow subverting this thread with my opinion seems paranoid.

Sloan is a champion of Aero, I know this from reading many posts and know he favours their jackets, obviously because of his dealings with them, others Good Wear, others Eastman, and many have a almost zealous loyalty which could be seen as disingenous, (in your meaning)

I don't agree with some of the bussiness ethic, or verbosity of BK's advertising, but that's doesn't change the product. As for sleeve width, this is a surprise to me, not something I have found at all, but do think it may come down to seeing something that might not be there. A person posts saying ' I think my sleeves are too wide' 5 people will reply and say, 'no, not at all' one will think, maybe, and maybe mine are too, so they may post, and someone else gets an idea or quibble, and so a problem is born and perpetuated.

My original point is the Liberty horse hide was advertised as being a reproduction tanned leather. So it looks like and ages so. And it does. This was no secret, so to order a jacket with this in mind then to say, it's not good enough is bizarre. Nothing was hidden. If you don't care for the style of tanning of Liberty or if it's is like vintage leather why order in the first place if you are unsure?

 

[handymike]

Bring on the pictures Chamboid!
Let's see what the jackets look like.

 

[Superfluous]

Are you sure you mean that Superfilious ?

Make fun of my forum moniker . . . wicked opening retort!

My opinion on the production of the jackets and the company has nothing to do any affiliation I have.

Maybe, maybe not. However, you indisputably have a profit motive that is advanced by promoting BK’s products. That profit motive and associated partiality is relevant when evaluating your promotion and commentary regarding BK products. To suggest otherwise is nonsensical.

but insinuation that I am somehow subverting this thread with my opinion is consipatory and paranoid.

Who said you are “subverting” this thread?

Perhaps it is you who is being “consipatory” [sic] and “paranoid.”

Sloan is a champion of Aero, I know this from reading many posts and know he favours their jackets, obviously because of his dealings with them, others Good Wear, others Eastman, and many have a almost zealous loyalty which could be seen as disingenous, (in your meaning)

That was not my meaning at all. Notwithstanding his passionate support or Aero, and acknowledged bias, Sloan does not have an ownership interest in Aero, nor does he retail Aero products. Sloan does not have a profit motive to endorse or promote Aero. Conversely, you have a profit motive to endorse and promote BK. You make money from the sale of BK products. You want people to buy BK jackets from your store. If people think favorably of BK products, they are more likely to purchase BK jackets from you. This profit motive transcends, and far exceeds, any bias that Sloan may have for Aero. Frankly, it is apples and oranges.

I am not suggesting that you cannot endorse BK products. That is well within your rights. However, when doing so, you should be upfront and candid about your profit motive. For example, Charles from HPA regularly endorses and promotes the products that he sells. He sometimes writes about his own ownership of these products. However, Charles is always very clear that he is more than simply an owner of the products. Charles is always very clear that he is selling the products, and he shares his ownership experiences with full disclosure of his profit motive. Nothing wrong with that. That is the correct way to do it.

There is an easy way to be upfront and candid about your ownership of American Classics and associated profit motive: Put the name of your store in your TFL moniker, just as Carrie and Charles have done.

I don't agree with some of the bussiness ethic, or verbosity of BK's advertising, but that's doesn't change the product.

Interesting that you choose to sell a product made by a company notwithstanding your disagreement with their “business ethics.” I know retailers who would prioritize a manufacturer’s business ethics over its product quality. Apparently, your profit motive is paramount, thus further illustrating why disclosure and candor are appropriate.

As for sleeve width, this is a surprise to me, not something I have found at all, but do think it may come down to seeing something that might not be there. A person posts saying ' I think my sleeves are too wide' 5 people will reply and say, 'no, not at all' one will think, maybe, and maybe mine are too, so they may post, and someone else gets an idea or quibble, and so a problem is born and perpetuated.

So, if only one person perceives a problem, it is legitimate, but if others agree, they are “seeing something that might not be there.” Interesting theory. Can’t say that I agree. Moreover, I observed the sleeve width problem on my two BK jackets before anyone had mentioned the issue publicly, as evidenced by my e-mail exchange with Andy concerning the problem and his inapposite and derogatory link to a skinny jeans video.

If you don't care for the style of tanning of Liberty or if it's is like vintage lather why order in the first place then bad mouth?

Because Andy told me it was the “best” and assured me that I would love it, and I naively trusted him. In retrospect, I should have asked for a sample.

 

[Seb Lucas]

Superfluous that's a pretty impressive response. And pretty fair.

 

[Otter]

Interesting to also note how much Chamboid has edited the tone of his post. The quoted sections retain the original, now much edited , flavour text.

 

[Mark]

I'm impressed Superflous, wish I could be that articulate. What does "inapposite" mean? I am not worthy!

 

[Seb Lucas]

inapposite - not relevant or pertinent.

 

[Bunyip]

This is too funny. I feel partly responsible for this thread....

 

[zhz]

As for sleeve width, this is a surprise to me, not something I have found at all, but do think it may come down to seeing something that might not be there. A person posts saying ' I think my sleeves are too wide' 5 people will reply and say, 'no, not at all' one will think, maybe, and maybe mine are too, so they may post, and someone else gets an idea or quibble, and so a problem is born and perpetuated.

Speaking of sleeves, I blame on you Chamboid, one reason I forgot to ask BK to narrow it down is because I saw how Hercules fits on you, the width of sleeve is right on you, so I think it should be fine one me, but it is not. Well, I think we have to agree that the sleeve do looks wide on my jacket.

 

[Sloan1874]

Given AC's has granted one of BK's pride of place in their shop window, speaks volumes about their commitment to their commercial success, which is admirable. I may be considered an 'Aero Fanboy' (*tm Plumbline) but the day I start sticking my jackets in the windows of my flats will be the day I seek specialist help. :crazy:
What really is odd, though, is that it's not the jackets that anyone has a problem with, per se, it's everything that surrounds them that detracts and is off-putting.

 

[Plumbline]

I had no idea you retailed goods from your flat Sloanie .............

 

[chamboid]

I spelt your forum name wrong, that was a mistake which I appologise for, it was a auto correct. But wasn't making fun of, nor was it meant as a 'wicked' retort.

And I have to correct you on what you think part part is in American Classics. Just for the record, I work there, I have no finantial interest apart from my pay cheque (without commission) I do not have a partnership or ownership over any part of the business. So I will dispute your indisputable fact, my proft motive is not a driving factor, to stock a interesting a decent jacket maker was my motive. Which I'm sure you won't accept.

Your exception to what I have said purely seems to be based on the misbelief that I have some controlling/ownership interest which just isn't the case, we are stockists. We stock many brands which I will champion because I believe in them, so pleased we stock them. The reason we stock BK is because I had owned the jackets and was impressed with the quality and workmanship and wanted to stock a quality brand. But you've got to let the bussiness thing drop. That's your issue, but off topic as to the debate about the leather.

If I have ever posted with anything to do with selling or stocking I have always mentioned American Classics, this was a private post. But I have learnt a lesson, which has exploded in my face with this thread.

And you answered your own question about subverting the thread, you implied I was keeping my connection a secret and my disingenuous approach was financially lead and therefore 'transcending' any personal bias. But only if you are convinced that I have a motive. It might be apples and oranges to you but is all fruit to me.

The sleeve thing is interesting as its only been mentioned relatively recently and never seemed a problem before. And of course if it is a problem it's a problem, but I also think of something is mentioned it can lead to looking for things that aren't there. Which you seem to do from our brief interaction Superfluous, be it the corrective text which changed your moniker or my involvement with BK. These are all things that you have seen, but don't exist.

But now, people have taken your side as to my 'involvement' financially, and my disingenuous nature. And will from now on think of me as the guy from American Classics that has some dealings with BK. This is all from your guess work which is misguided and incorrect.

The same thing is possible with the sleeve idea. People will now think, oh there is a problem with the sleeves on these jacket, or their jackets. It's an idea which will fester.

My main problem. And this was my original point, if you agree to have a jacket made, or two, but haven't seen a sample of the leather where does the blame lie? The Liberty is a fine leather, good quality, and designed to age quicker and show wear as with vintage leather. If you don't care about this why order in the first place?

If the jackets have been returned good for BK they're going to make you happy hopefully. That's good service. But get some samples make an informed decision. It is naive to just take the manufacturers word for it, especially with all the hyperbole which seems to float around BK and the leathers.

I would recommend the Victory or if he can the Badalassi. Both should be more satisfactory for you. But if you are going to put that much money down have as much information as possible to begin with.

I think it's a shame you didn't like the Liberty though it wil age beautifully, and definirly doesn't have a vinyl quality to it.