Bill Kelso A-2's - What's the consensus?

[andyfalzon]

The contention that ANY kind of hide, no matter how good quality, can instinctively "know" it is part of a collar, and can therefore take on the right "relaxed"shape from new, without any wearing, is SO stupid, that it insults the intelligence of this forum. Call it "fine tuning" if you like, but those jackets are not adopting a worn look on their own.

This is taking the "who makes the best A2" debate to foolish heights. Or should that be depths......

Enough said

I find your post offensive but nevermind that. We can send you two sample pieces of the leather and you can wet one and compare it with the other (dry) to see the difference. You will also be able to see how the dry behaves. Then you could compare the wet to the jacket (if you had one) and understand if the jacket was ever wet or not. The finish of this leather is such that you can mold it without having to wet it. This tannery makes marvels. That's why it costs us a fortune. Period.

 

[andyfalzon]

and if you want we can bet....

 

[majormajor]

The finish of this leather is such that you can mold it without having to wet it. This tannery makes marvels. That's why it costs us a fortune. Period.

Ludicrous. Hot water molding stops when the hide dries.

If you have hide that continually "molds", even when dry, it will keep changing shape and finish up a floppy mess. So basically a tighter fitting soft leather Mall Jacket.

Original WW2 A2s NEVER did that, and to develop one that does seems to misunderstand why folks buy the bloody things in the first place. What ever floats your boat. I'll stick with REAL HH

 

[andyfalzon]

You have been negative from the start of this conversation.
This particular hide is one of the best quality that can be found in 2012/13. Higher quality than the WW2 hides.
But you can't judge any of that by looking at photos.

 

[3onaMatch]

Wow! What did I start here? In all fairness, Majormajor, your criticisms are coming off as rather hostile.

 

[majormajor]

Wow! What did I start here? In all fairness, Majormajor, your criticisms are coming off as rather hostile.

Not hostile at all. Just in the real world.

Goodwear does not constantly log on here and claim their A2s are better than other makers. Neither does Eastman. Neither does Aero.

But Kelso finally get round to making jackets, and straight away are making ludicrous claims that they have some sort of miracle leather that makes them the best. Why??

That sort of BS deserves a reply. Just my opinion, at the end of the day. Feel free to disagree. This is a forum, after all.

 

[3onaMatch]

Yeah, you still sound hostile….

Not taking sides, as I have no stake in this either way, but “Ludicrous” “BS”? If this were written in the tone of constructive criticism you might use words like “exaggerated,” “inaccurate,” even “outright false”, but it’s not; it’s quite vitriolic. And I’m wondering if there’s a history here between you and the jacket maker. On what are you basing your remarks anyway? Do you own or have you ever owned a Bill Kelso A-2?

Also, folks from Eastman and Aero have interacted on these discussion boards before. Goodwear doesn't have to defend itself; everyone else does that for it.

 

[majormajor]

Yeah, you still sound hostile….

Not taking sides, as I have no stake in this either way, but “Ludicrous” “BS”? If this were written in the tone of constructive criticism you might use words like “exaggerated,” “inaccurate,” even “outright false”, but it’s not; it’s quite vitriolic. And I’m wondering if there’s a history here between you and the jacket maker. On what are you basing your remarks anyway? Do you own or have you ever owned a Bill Kelso A-2?

Also, folks from Eastman and Aero have interacted on these discussion boards before. Goodwear doesn't have to defend itself; everyone else does that for it.

"Outright false" would be a far more hostile remark,IMHO.

No history whatsoever. If makers don't want responses to what is effectively free advertising, then they should not post on to open forums like this.

Kelso is making a claim about the property of its leather, which it describes as "a marvel"....... It states that it is "moldable" in its regular dry state. And that it is "higher quality than WW2 hides".

But think about that - this leather is so soft and pliable that it is unlike normal HH that takes time to mold itself to the wearer. This stuff does it immediately.

Well, if it does that today, it will do it again next week, and next year. And it will mold itself every time you put it on a hanger. So down the line, a jacket this soft will NOT look like a HH A2. It will look like a floppy Mall Jacket.

If that's what you want - great. Buy a Kelso jacket.

I like my A2s to mould themselves gradually, to my shape, like real WW2 A2s did. I want to mold the collar once - not have it continually remolding itself!!

This leather seems to be an answer to a question no-one ever asked. And as such, yes, I do feel the claims are rather silly. Which is pretty much what "ludicrous" means.

As I said, this is a forum. Folks are free to disagree with me.

 

[cuthbert]

Kelso is making a claim about the property of its leather, which it describes as "a marvel"....... It states that it is "moldable" in its regular dry state. And that it is "higher quality than WW2 hides".
QUOTE]

Stuart says the same regarding his hide and the original Buco jacket, but I don't see him taking so much flack.

 

[Seb Lucas]

I'm often not keen on Andy's brash style but Major you are sounding shrill. I have seen new soft, mouldable horse hide - it's how it is treated in the tannery. Probably less wax - whatever. Not all HH is like Areo's super hard FQHH.

 

[majormajor]

Kelso is making a claim about the property of its leather, which it describes as "a marvel"....... It states that it is "moldable" in its regular dry state. And that it is "higher quality than WW2 hides".
QUOTE]

Stuart says the same regarding his hide and the original Buco jacket, but I don't see him taking so much flack.

By Stuart, I assume you mean Lost Words. This is what it says on their site:

Unlike weaker hides, genuine Chrome-Tanned Heavyweight Horsehide never loses strength as it softens and molds to its owner. Its beauty and comfort always increase without losing durability and protection -- why old manufacturers and riders always preferred Horsehide

And note that is on their SITE - not regularly posted as a free ad on here....

"never loses strength as it softens and molds to its owner" is a long way from what Kelso are claiming

 

[andyfalzon]

But Kelso finally get round to making jackets, and straight away are making ludicrous claims that they have some sort of miracle leather that makes them the best. Why??

Wait a minute. You are out of line.
You accused us of giving the jackets hot water treatment. I politely explained to you that we do not.
You continued calling me a liar. Your posts were slanderous all along.
I further explained to you that the quality of this leather is such that it doesn't need any treatment and that it's very good quality.
I do not claim BK makes the best jackets. That's for the customers and the fans to decide. I said also that we can provide a jacket for comparison purposes.

Perhaps I should not continue the dialoge with you but I want to be clear for the other people reading this.

What I said is that we buy one of the best leathers out there. That is a fact. Its price reflects its good quality. It's one of the best that we have seen. We are in the leathers business for many years and have seen tons of leather. Trust me we have enough experience to know when a leather is good. If this leather was not good we would not pay the kind of money the tannery asks for it.

But think about that - this leather is so soft and pliable that it is unlike normal HH that takes time to mold itself to the wearer. This stuff does it immediately.

Well, if it does that today, it will do it again next week, and next year. And it will mold itself every time you put it on a hanger. So down the line, a jacket this soft will NOT look like a HH A2. It will look like a floppy Mall Jacket.

You are making way many assumptions and the bottom line is that you have not seen this leather in person.
Who is the prudent reader of this forum supposed to believe? the maker? the tannery with 100 years in the business? or you who make your judgements by looking at the photos?

"never loses strength as it softens and molds to its owner"

Ours does that too.

Furthermore, although already known, I will repeat that our jackets are returnable and refundable. If you buy and it's not up to your standards you can send it back for refund.

Or, if you want, we can make you a jacket and send it to you. If you like it, you pay for it, if you don't like it you send it back. What do you say?

 

[majormajor]

Hi Andy

I've stated what I believe.

You are making a jacket that, undoubtably, looks great out of the box.

Which is cool, except that HH (and I don't mean the heavy stuff as on an Aero HWM or similar - I mean the lighter stuff used for A2s) starts out stiff and gradually shapes itself to the wearer and takes on a unique shape only for that wearer.

To offer something quite different - i.e. it molds immediately, before it is even worn - is to offer something that has not been asked for by A2 fans.

And who is to say what that "ever-pliable" jacket will look like in say, 5 years. When ALL the shape has fallen out of it, will you still refund it??

An old adage - if it ain't broke, don't try to fix it.

There is nothing wrong with HH that molds gradually with wear and takes on a patina unique to that individual garment - just like they did in WW2.

To claim that some "marvel" hide is better is, to say the least, fanciful. But it's your business, mate. Good luck to you

PS. This thread is working well as an advert for you. 1100 hits and counting......

 

[andyfalzon]

This leather is really substantial and will not go out of shape.
I have offered you a chance to try this leather by getting a jacket. It would prove that your belief is wrong.

If that is too much for you, we can always send you a sample piece that you can put next to other maker's HH and see what you think.

In fact, anyone here who likes a sample, please let me know.

 

[3onaMatch]

Hell, I'll take one! Wait...are these free?

 

[andyfalzon]

yes, free

 

[3onaMatch]

Oh, you mean leather samples. I thought we were talking about jackets here.... Actually, samples would be nice. Will email you.

 

[majormajor]

The finish of this leather is such that you can mold it without having to wet it.

This leather is really substantial and will not go out of shape.

There's the thing....

You can mold it to any shape - but it won't go out of shape. Hello??

Those two statements are mutually exclusive:eusa_doh::eusa_doh::eusa_doh:

 

[andyfalzon]

Thank you for the information.
The leather is here, available to anybody who likes to see it, put it to the test.
I already offered you some but you play deaf. Hello???

:eusa_doh::eusa_doh::eusa_doh:

 

[hyptul]

You can mold it to any shape - but it won't go out of shape. Hello??

Those two statements are mutually exclusive:eusa_doh::eusa_doh::eusa_doh:

There is no contradiction. Clay has such properties.