Best Winter flight jacket. Why Sheepskin?

[ProfessorShak]

Hey Gang,

I'm a member of COW, and this is my first post on the FL.

I've been looking into buying a winter flight jacket, one that will keep me REAL warm but is durable, tough, and will last me A LONG time.
I already have a G&B Expedition Jacket in Goatskin and I LOVE it. So I wanted to find a shearling lined jacket in similar leather, either Horsehide or Goatskin.
What I've notice with a lot of flight jackets lined with shearling is that the leather is Either completely or mostly Sheepskin. Not only have I been told that sheepskin and lambskin are fragile and not very durable But I own a bomber jacket made from lamb, and after 3 years it's starting to shed its leather.
I gotta ask WHY are so many, if not all, shearling bomber jackets made in sheepskin if the leather isn’t as durable as say goatskin?

And if anyone would recommend a high quality leather jacket that’s great for the winter I’m all ears.

Thanks

 

[Smithy]

Horses for courses really. Everyone has their favourites.

I personally have an Eastman 1940 Pattern Irvin which is brilliant. It has survived a Norwegian winter and kept me toasty when I was inside the Arctic Circle over Christmas. Plus women go quite doolally over the thing which is an added bonus.

 

[Hawk_Eye]

For durability, I think it depends of the type of sheepskin used (just look at how well British sheepskin Irvins have stood up compared to American sheepskin B-3s.) There are Irvins out there that have been worn, and worn hard, for 60-70 years they are still going strong, if properly taken care of. If thats not durable I dont know what is.

 

[kevinblack]

I think also that the sheepskin with wool (shearling) attached was used because the wool traps air. The trapped air acts as an insulator which is why most cold weather jackets make you look like the Michellin man. So the choice wasn't sheepskin over goat or cow for the most durable, but which would be the warmest. And as others have said, there are a lot of old Irvins out there that have had a lot of work and are still in one piece.

Kevin

 

[Fletch]

Also - some makers' sheep jackets apparently fell apart faster than others, perhaps due to lower grade skins or to processing. It's particularly rare to see a Fried-Ostermann in good shape.

It's been said that the first generation military winter flight gear - the B-1/B-2 type, of horsehide with shearling, pile or blanket lining - went out because horse tended to get stiff in subzero cold.

 

[aswatland]

For durability, I think it depends of the type of sheepskin used (just look at how well British sheepskin Irvins have stood up compared to American sheepskin B-3s.) There are Irvins out there that have been worn, and worn hard, for 60-70 years they are still going strong, if properly taken care of. If thats not durable I dont know what is.

I would agree with Hawkeye. The most durable sheepskin jackets are Wartime Irvins. They rarely fall apart in contrast with B3s and M445s.

 

[Naphtali]

Hey Gang,

I'm a member of COW, and this is my first post on the FL.

I've been looking into buying a winter flight jacket, one that will keep me REAL warm but is durable, tough, and will last me A LONG time. . . .

And if anyone would recommend a high quality leather jacket that’s great for the winter I’m all ears.

Thanks

What is "COW?"

Please don't chew my you-know-whats off. Are flight jackets, having lengths that end at about belt level, warm for extended use when compared with similar jacket/coat with length to crotch or slightly lower?

I do not refer to sitting for hours in a cramped, unheated seat where longer jackets restrict movement. I do not refer to driving to the store, or walking a couple of blocks in inclement weather. For these and similar endeavors flight jackets may be ideal.

Spending time outdoors in winter would appear to require more jacket length than is available from, for example, Irvins and B-3s -- at least where I live in western Montana.

"Okay, wise guy," you might reasonably respond, "what's your answer?"

I've approached a similar question for living where winter is six months and winter wind is challenging -- wind cutting is a very strong benefit of leather jackets, trust me. On paper and from correspondence, I anticipate a Cirrus 2Plus2 sheepskin coat, with slightly longer length than its 32-inch standard will fulfill my needs.

It strongly resembles the Irvin, having its gauntlet-accepting sleeves, one-inch wool lining, Irvin collar, etc. Add a two-way zipper to allow comfort when sitting and the coat adequately responds to the last part of your query. What I will not know for sure until I buy it is quality of the coat. John Lever, a member of the forum, has substantial experience with Cirrus products. He informs me that quality of materials and manufacture are good.

Hope this helps.

 

[Smithy]

Well as I wrote above I survived winter in Norway (and the height of winter inside the Arctic Circle) in an Irvin. Thing is, if it was really cold, I had a roll-neck jumper on underneath which sits lower than the Irvin, and had thermals on under my jeans. Admittedly Eastman made my Irvin with an extra inch and a half on the sleeves and body so it sits around the same length below belt line.

Was snug as a bug in a rug, even spending hours outside.

 

[Naphtali]

. . . Admittedly Eastman made my Irvin with an extra inch and a half on the sleeves and body so it sits around the same length below belt line.

Was snug as a bug in a rug, even spending hours outside.

I think you and I are in agreement. "Irvin police" may question whether what you wear remains an Irvin.

Eastman made your non-standard Irvin? This is a revelation. How many pieces were used for the body? Is sheepskin vegetable tanned, or chrome tanned?

So far as you know, will Eastman still make non-standard versions? With whom would I want to discuss this at Eastman?

 

[Hawk_Eye]

Same here. I went through our cold Canadian winter just fine in my Irvin, and on really cold days I just threw on my eastman rollneck which reaches another 3-4 inches past the bottom of the jacket. It looks great and it keeps me warm. Granted, my feet are cold but that just means I need a pair of good flying boots!

 

[Fletch]

What is "COW?"

Shhh, it's apparently some kind of secret.

 

[ProfessorShak]

So the reason why my lambskin shearling is falling apart after 3 years is because of the quality of the lamb?
I know lamb and sheep aren't exactly the same thing, but is there a difference in durability? I'd like to buy a leather jacket that will keep me warm in the winter and last me a minimum of 10 years and not have to worry about the leather falling apart.

 

[Smithy]

I think you and I are in agreement. "Irvin police" may question whether what you wear remains an Irvin.

Eastman made your non-standard Irvin? This is a revelation. How many pieces were used for the body? Is sheepskin vegetable tanned, or chrome tanned?

So far as you know, will Eastman still make non-standard versions? With whom would I want to discuss this at Eastman?

My Irvin was only half an inch longer than Eastman's standard long sizing and truth be told similar in length to longer sized wartime Irvins. You certainly can't call my Irvin longer than what was seen in wartime and it did me just fine...

 

["Doc" Devereux]

Mine sits about where Smithy's does (and Tim, that really has broken in quite beautifully) - and it's perfectly comfortable in the UK.

It hasn't been cold enough to wear with a pullover yet, but with a jacket underneath it's the bee's knees. I hardly ever wear anything else.

ETA: Calm down, you lot!

 

[HungaryTom]

What about this one?

http://www.aeroleatherclothing.com/...ge?page=displayproduct&subcatid=38&prodid=704
Is it worth buying if I will not fly open cockpit in the winter?

 

[aswatland]

My Irvin was only half an inch longer than Eastman's standard long sizing and truth be told similar in length to longer sized wartime Irvins. You certainly can't call my Irvin longer than what was seen in wartime and it did me just fine...

Smithy, Your Irvin is spot on. As you know wartime originals varied in length. There was no "idealised" Irvin fit in terms of length. They most frequently ended on the hips. Pilots and aircrew saw them as functional garments to keep them warm, not fashion accessories! However the rule of thumb for length of the sleeves is that the cuff would end at the nuckles, but again this varied! Just look at the many pics of originals in the main Irvin Nuts thread for examples.

 

[Smithy]

Thanks guys. And Doc that photo was actually taken around a month or so after getting it if I remember correctly. Here's a photo from about two weeks ago. I wore my Irvin virtually everyday from October until the end of March. By the way, apologies for being a tad scruffy in the pic, casualty of a big night...

EDIT: Naphtali, Gary won't make huge changes to the jackets as it changes the look of them too much. He added half an inch onto the long sizing for me as I'm tallish.

 

["Doc" Devereux]

http://www.aeroleatherclothing.com/...ge?page=displayproduct&subcatid=38&prodid=704
Is it worth buying if I will not fly open cockpit in the winter?

I have an Aero Barnstormer with a standard collar and cotton lining, and it's warm enough for London. They need a LOT more breaking in that an Irvin, but it's quite a popular jacket around here.

Mine's still breaking in, but Paddy will be able to give you a better idea of what they're like long term.

Thanks guys. And Doc that photo was actually taken around a month or so after getting it if I remember correctly. Here's a photo from about two weeks ago. I wore my Irvin virtually everyday from October until the end of March. By the way, apologies for being a tad scruffy in the pic, casualty of a big night...

Ah, the perils of a night op - hope you weren't shot down! :cheers1:

I stuck mine under my pillow for a fortnight when it first arrived and slept on it. This killed the newness double-quick!

I need to find someone with a camera and get a picture or two of mine before the time comes to put her away for the summer.

That time isn't today, though - it's snowing again! Yippee!

 

[Smithy]

[QUOTE="Doc" Devereux]
I stuck mine under my pillow for a fortnight when it first arrived and slept on it. This killed the newness double-quick!
[/QUOTE]

I'm with you there Doc. I haven't molly-coddled mine at all, it's been rained on, snowed on, slept in, stuffed in an overhead luggage compartment, been to rather a few packed pubs and bars, and it's gotten better from doing it.

Ah, the perils of a night op - hope you weren't shot down!

Down in flames old boy. Was subjected to a bit of nasty interrogation afterwards as well!

 

[HungaryTom]

Doc,

Thank you so much for the answer - I asked around about Barnstormers with Aero's own forum and also several times here at the lounge, but you were the first one to react to my question.

I have been eyeing with the Shawl collar model for quite some time concerning that in Budapest the weather is more continental and it can get below -10 Celsius + Arctic/Siberian wind + snow for a few weeks in January and February so it could give me a real service for a few weeks use each year.

Yep, horsehide is more stiff than the shearling Irvin Jacket - thus the breaking in time is needed.

For the time being I use my 3/4 length shearling coat for those cold days.

Thanks

Tom