Best superhero?

[Blowtorch]

(It's Batman, of course)

 

[Edward]

What are the parameters? Are we expanding 'superhero' to encompass all costumed adventurers, or holding it to a strict standard that requires super-powers (which would, of course, rule Bstman out).

 

[Blowtorch]

Isn't it safe to say that one recognizes a superhero when one sees one?

I say it's Batman's lack of superhuman powers that make him interesting. That , and, you know, he's the coolest

 

[robrinay]

When I was a lad in the late 50's and early 60's, searching through piles of battered often cover-less DC comics in Rotherham Indoor Market Hall, I bought my favourites, Superman and Superboy. I believe these scarce American comics had been brought to the UK as ships ballast (US newsagents returns), sold cheap or salvaged from dumps at the docks. I would read Batman comics but found them a trifle dry.

 

[Edward]

Isn't it safe to say that one recognizes a superhero when one sees one?

I say it's Batman's lack of superhuman powers that make him interesting. That , and, you know, he's the coolest

Of course it's Batman's human frailties and moral failings that make him far more interesting than Goody-Two-Shoes-Alien Superman. I prefer to think of him as a costumed vigilante, though, given said absence of superpowers.

DC by and large always provided somewhat darker fare than Marvel, much of it in the Batman line. On the flipside, they have Superman, while Marvel produced the X-Men, in particular outsider characters like Wolverine. Where Marvel absolutely stand out with the most significant contribution to the superhero genre since its origin was the creation of Spiderman: a character with an ordinary background, ordinary problems, and whose super-power, by and large, doesn't improve his own life significantly.

If we're going with the wider definition of 'superheroes', Batman I do enjoy a lot, even if Adam West turned me off it for many years by making me think it was a pathetic joke character. The best Batman stuff is where they get to the real nitty gritty about how Batman is little different than many of his nemeses like the Joker... he is simply more socially acceptable because the targets of Bruce Wayne's psychosis - the Batman persona - are considered to be socially undesirable, and so taking the law into his own hands (a common euphemism for certain types of criminal behaviour) becomes acceptable to the audience. That aspect I find fascinating. Much like Watchmen, in which Rorschach (a character loosely based on Batman) is a despicable fascist, homophobic, possibly racist.... and at the same time the only single one of the lot of them with an ounce of integrity. I enjoy that kind of uncomfortable nuance in my comic books. While falling rather outside the superhero genre, Judge Dredd is in much the same vein of anti-hero.

 

[Blowtorch]

the real nitty gritty about how Batman is little different than many of his nemeses like the Joker... he is simply more socially acceptable because the targets of Bruce Wayne's psychosis - the Batman persona - are considered to be socially undesirable, and so taking the law into his own hands (a common euphemism for certain types of criminal behaviour) becomes acceptable to the audience.

That's exactly right, most Batman stuff is like a noir novel in that sense, where our hero is really no different than the villain, except for a matter of circumstance.
That's why I like noir literature, and that's why Batman is way more interesting than some hero who is invincible and invulnerable (and boring)

Batman is my nomination for official crime-fighting "hero" of the Fedora Lounge,
although, one could certainly make a strong case for guys like The Rocketeer , Dick Tracy, and The Shadow

 

[LizzieMaine]

While I'm very fond of the two-fisted, squinty-eyed New Deal Superman of 1938-39, my vote has to go to Ma Hunkel, the original Red Tornado.

Ma was introduced in 1940, a loud-mouthed short-tempered middle-aged working-class woman who got tired of gangsters and Nazis infesting her neighborhood. So she made a uniform out of long underwear and a soup kettle and took the law into her own hands. And she knew how to hit her enemies right where it would do the most good.

The Red Tomato -- ah, excuse me, Red Tornado, was the first female superhero, preceding Wonder Woman by about a year, and was also the first parody superhero, showing up at a time when the genre was in its first flush of popularity. She disappeared in 1944, and her name was subsequently taken by a tedious android. But nobody could ever replace her, because she would have hit them below the belt if they'd tried.

 

[shadowrider]

Interesting thread!
I'm going to be the black sheep here and say that I never much liked DC comics (with notable exceptions, like some Batman stand-alone stories where the dark themes mentioned by Edward are prevalent - The Killing Joke, to name one).
I'm for Marvel all the way. Spider-Man, Fantastic Four, Captain America in my top three.
The Punisher and Daredevil have provided some great noir-ish storylines too, if that is your cup of tea.

However, my favorite comic books are non-superhero ones, just because the concept of superhero (a dude who goes around at night wearing a cape and colored underwear) is quite ridiculous, if one thinks about it. One of my favorite characters is Pat Mill's (of 2000AD fame) Marshal Law, which satirizes the whole genre based on this premise.

 

[robrinay]

The first DC comic I ever read was sent over by my Canadian Aunt - it was 'The Five Fingers of Felix Faust' a Justice League of America comic.

 

[Doctor Strange]

I don't have a favorite. When you've been avidly consuming pop culture for sixty years, you realize that naming favorites and assembling best-of lists are pointless exercises. If not downright impossible.

But I remain completely fascinated by superheroes, because as I've often said here, I have come to believe that the stories that we tell over and over - and the mythic figures that keep recurring in new forms that populate them (e.g., wily Odysseus becomes Batman) - tell us more truths about our essential humanity than just about anything else.

 

[Fading Fast]

As an offshoot of the question, I'll raise my hand to say that the second Nolan Batman movie "The Dark Knight" is the best superhero movie ever made. I'd even put it in my top-twenty of all movies ever made list.

That said, I subscribe to a softer but similar attitude toward lists than Doctor Strange does in that I take them all more as a fun forum for discussion than a real precise ranking.

Probably like many, I enjoyed Superman more as a kid when it was just fun to fantasize about having so much super power, but as an adult - for all the reasons mentioned above - I have found Batman to be the most interesting.

 

[scottyrocks]

I can point specifically to the The Dark Knight Returns (1986) as my favorite volume.

Written by Frank Miller, it is a compilation of 4 comic books into one volume. The plot revolves around a decade retired Batman/Bruce Wayne caving in to his basic instincts and donning the costume again at age 50.

Each chapter (comic book) has its own subplot, featuring its own baddies, that ties into the overall theme of the mini-series. And talk about dark and macabre - this one is it, as far as that goes.

It should be noted that a number of recent Batman movie scenes have been lifted almost directly from this ground-breaking volume (can you tell I'm a fan?).

 

[Edward]

That's exactly right, most Batman stuff is like a noir novel in that sense, where our hero is really no different than the villain, except for a matter of circumstance.
That's why I like noir literature, and that's why Batman is way more interesting than some hero who is invincible and invulnerable (and boring)

Batman is my nomination for official crime-fighting "hero" of the Fedora Lounge,
although, one could certainly make a strong case for guys like The Rocketeer , Dick Tracy, and The Shadow

The Shadow is great. I still very much enjoy the Alec Baldwin picture based on that. I'm surprised, what with the popularity of period pieces of recent years as well as the superhero film boom, nobody has revived that one again. Sam Raimi reportedly wanted to make a Shadow picture way back in the late eighties, but was unable to secure the rights, so he put together Darkman instead. I'd love to see what he would do with the Shadow.

However, my favorite comic books are non-superhero ones, just because the concept of superhero (a dude who goes around at night wearing a cape and colored underwear) is quite ridiculous, if one thinks about it. One of my favorite characters is Pat Mill's (of 2000AD fame) Marshal Law, which satirizes the whole genre based on this premise.

For my money, the 2000AD stable is consistently among the best in the industry. Marshall Law was a great concept. I read it in Strip when I was about eighteen and I think too young to fully get it; I must seek it out again. The notion of a superhero rapist was uncomfortable, and yet also fascinating in the way they opened up the story.

I don't have a favorite. When you've been avidly consuming pop culture for sixty years, you realize that naming favorites and assembling best-of lists are pointless exercises. If not downright impossible.

Of course - if it wasn't pointless and impossible, it wouldn't be nearly so much fun.

But I remain completely fascinated by superheroes, because as I've often said here, I have come to believe that the stories that we tell over and over - and the mythic figures that keep recurring in new forms that populate them (e.g., wily Odysseus becomes Batman) - tell us more truths about our essential humanity than just about anything else.

Precisely so.

As an offshoot of the question, I'll raise my hand to say that the second Nolan Batman movie "The Dark Knight" is the best superhero movie ever made. I'd even put it in my top-twenty of all movies ever made list.

Interesting. I would put Watchmen above it, but I'm also pretty certain that it was the success of Nolan's run at the Batman franchise that made the studios take the notion of Watchmen seriously. Watchmen's success made other adult-oriented comic book films viable to - in particular Dredd (a world away from the diabolical Stallone vehicle, Judge Dredd), and Logan, the latter being the finest of all the Marvel Universe creations to date.

 

[Zombie_61]

...Where Marvel absolutely stand out with the most significant contribution to the superhero genre since its origin was the creation of Spiderman: a character with an ordinary background, ordinary problems, and whose super-power, by and large, doesn't improve his own life significantly...

The thing I always found interesting about Marvel's stable of superheroes was that so many of them were given an Achilles' Heel in one form or another. Peter Parker/Spider-Man lived with his Aunt May and had to keep his real identity a secret so that she wouldn't be targeted by his various adversaries; Bruce Banner had to control his emotions or he'd become The Hulk and unwittingly cause massive amounts of destruction; Tony Stark/Iron Man had a piece of shrapnel in his chest that constantly threatened his heart; Steve Rogers/Captain America had superhuman abilities, but was still vulnerable to bladed weapons, bullets, and such. And on, and on, and on.

As an offshoot of the question, I'll raise my hand to say that the second Nolan Batman movie "The Dark Knight" is the best superhero movie ever made...

Until March 4th of this year I would have agreed with you. Then I saw Logan.

 

[shadowrider]

Now you guys got me curious. Just added Logan to my torrents.

 

[Frunobulax]

The thing I always found interesting about Marvel's stable of superheroes was that so many of them were given an Achilles' Heel in one form or another. Peter Parker/Spider-Man lived with his Aunt May and had to keep his real identity a secret so that she wouldn't be targeted by his various adversaries; Bruce Banner had to control his emotions or he'd become The Hulk and unwittingly cause massive amounts of destruction; Tony Stark/Iron Man had a piece of shrapnel in his chest that constantly threatened his heart; Steve Rogers/Captain America had superhuman abilities, but was still vulnerable to bladed weapons, bullets, and such. And on, and on, and on.

Until March 4th of this year I would have agreed with you. Then I saw Logan.

As an angst and hormone-ridden young man, the Marvel titles "spoke" to me more by having the heroes be vulnerable and flawed. Stan Lee Jack Kirby gave us anti-heroes and fed into the entire post-1960 culture that gave rise to things like Dirty Harry, etc. So I was always a Marvel guy. I read Superman and Batman, and had a special love for the Green Lantern, but it was Spiderman I had a subscription to. The nerd in me loved the F4, and I was a big Iron Man fan, as well as Cap.

There was always something "clean" or "cut and dried" about DC comics. I liked the grittier aspects of Marvel better.

Also, as somebody who hasn't followed the X-Men series (I saw the first couple, but no more), would I get anything out of Logan? Or would I be too behind the curve?

 

[Nobert]

Plastic Man. More or less impossible to do as a dark-costumed, gritty reboot.

 

[LizzieMaine]

Plastic Man. More or less impossible to do as a dark-costumed, gritty reboot.

I look forward to Woozy Winks being reimagined as a wiry, tattooed street kid with a punk haircut and martial-arts skills.

 

[Zombie_61]

As an angst and hormone-ridden young man, the Marvel titles "spoke" to me more by having the heroes be vulnerable and flawed. Stan Lee Jack Kirby gave us anti-heroes and fed into the entire post-1960 culture that gave rise to things like Dirty Harry, etc. So I was always a Marvel guy. I read Superman and Batman, and had a special love for the Green Lantern, but it was Spiderman I had a subscription to. The nerd in me loved the F4, and I was a big Iron Man fan, as well as Cap.

There was always something "clean" or "cut and dried" about DC comics. I liked the grittier aspects of Marvel better...

This is the same reason I was attracted to Marvel's superheroes--they were vulnerable in some way, and that made them more realistic. It's also the main reason I never really cared for Superman. Yes, the writers of the The Adventures of Superman radio show eventually came up with Kryptonite to give him some vulnerability (and to allow Clayton Collyer, the voice of Superman, to take a vacation), but it wasn't quite the same. And I think that's why Batman has always been my personal favorite--he's intelligent, has trained his body, and apparently has more money than anyone can imagine, but he's still just a guy with no superhuman powers.

...Also, as somebody who hasn't followed the X-Men series (I saw the first couple, but no more), would I get anything out of Logan? Or would I be too behind the curve?

You might enjoy it, but probably not as much as someone who is familiar with the characters' histories would. At the very least I'd suggest seeing X-Men Origins: Wolverine and The Wolverine first, but even those movies won't explain the relationship between Logan and Charles Xavier unless you've also seen X-Men, X-Men 2, and X-Men: The Last Stand.

I think the thing I like most about Logan is that they kept the "futuristic" and "mutant" elements of the story to a bare minimum; as much as they could and still tell this story, that is. Yes, they're there, and they play a part in the story, but you could remove those elements, set the movie in 2017 instead of 2029, make Logan and Xavier former military who are long past their "glory days" and have fallen on hard times, and the movie really wouldn't be too different.

 

[Lean'n'mean]

Best superhero ? .......Superdog of course, up, up & away !