Belting a back

[reetpleat]

I have a suit I like, but I would like it better if it had a belted back. The pants are so long that even with keeping some length in case I pass the suit along, I just have too much. It is too heavy and bulky.

so, i am thinking about using the fabric to make a belt and do a belted back. It seems to me hat if the back seam is let out, then gathered at the waist, that is all you need.

Anyone ever done it? Any thoughts?

 

[Bird's One View]

Unless you are very thin and the trouser legs are very generously cut, you will not get a piece of cloth from the trouser hem long enough to construct a half belt.

 

[reetpleat]

I have seen belted backs with the belt having a seam in the middle. Beyond that, there is no reason that you could not do so even if it were not the norm.

 

[Lamplight]

Unless you are very thin and the trouser legs are very generously cut, you will not get a piece of cloth from the trouser hem long enough to construct a half belt.

I don't know, if you multiply the diameter of a cuff by 3.14, the number will likely be surprisingly high. And the belt would only have to span the back at the narrowest point. The diameter of the cuff of the jeans I'm wearing right now is right at 9 inches, which means the circumference is over 27 inches. That would be way more than enough for a half belt (not that you'd want to do one out of denim on a suit lol )

Of course, after you shorten the trousers it should be immediately obvious whether or not you'll have enough material for a half belt.

 

[reetpleat]

I think you may be getting your math wrong. A pair of vintage pants laid flat will be about 9 1/2 inches at the cuff. But this can only be doubled, not pied. But then you have a little seam fabric, so with a seam in the middle, i should be able to get a good 20 inches, so that is more than I need.

The pants are way long, so no worries there. I only need a couple of inches.

But, any concerns from the tailor aspect?

 

[Lamplight]

I think you may be getting your math wrong. A pair of vintage pants laid flat will be about 9 1/2 inches at the cuff. But this can only be doubled, not pied.

That's true; I wasn't taking into account the flexibility of the material and the fact that it's no longer a circle when laid flat. :eusa_doh:

 

[BellyTank]

I have some thoughts... maybe too many- sorry...

I think there are for more evils to contend with than simply re-claiming cloth for the half-belt- that will be the least of your worries.
This "alteration" to the jacket, would be more an exercise in re-engineering.

I am not a Tailoring expert but through my own laboratory experiments,
I have seen for myself, some of the intricacies and nuance of jacket altering- and that you cannot (when making more than slight alterations)change something without everything else going south. This is even more of a fact when you have no spare cloth(to make a "new" back).

If you imagine partially de-constructing the jacket and putting it on a mannequin... (this is totally simplified, just to imagine what could go wrong- there's much more to it and we need a starting point)...then begin at the centre back, by trying to achieve the sculpted shape of the back- from above the belt position to below the belt position, into the skirt- gathering/pleating it, you will immediately encounter problems...
A pleats/gathers-type belted-back jacket "usually" has a back "panel",
which started life considerably wider than the "finished" back- in order to find the allowances that make up the pleats/gathers and shaping. There would usually, also be a shoulder yoke, a top "anchor" for these pleats, or gathering-(allowing the shoulder and collar to remain stable and unaffected by the back treatment) the second anchor, being the belt.

You will surely need to de-construct the jacket, at least at the side panels(which may, at the end of fiddling with the back, not be wide enough to reach the new sides of the back panel), in order to fashion the back (of course the shoulder, armhole/armpit and even the skirt and hem will be effected)and then you will discover, that after taking a dart, a gather, or a pleat here and there, that the back and side panels will not want to meet up, due to the narrower width and new shape of the back panel.
You are also effectively adding a strain and a twist by changing the jacket back, which is still connected at some point/s. The shoulder will want to come backward, armpit twist and totally disturb the front. I think also the back would end up being shorter and the hem no longer straight.

*Back to the side panels- a vintage belt-back treatment usually(if I'm not mistaken) involves side panels which are more shaped- becoming wider toward the belt-point, creating a back panel, which "narrows" to the belt.
The side panels fit in between the back and the fronts, below the armpit and allow the jacket to be more hourglass shaped- waisted and skirted, on a vintage style but on a more modern, or boxy jacket, they may be less shaped.

If the jacket is very roomy, or too large, then you may have some more room to make alterations to the back but surely the rest of the jacket will need alteration to fit, anyway.

Take as a simpler example, an alteration to trousers- to narrow a waistband-
take the waistband in, at centre back- then you need to take-in some of the vertical back seam, down and toward/to the crotch seam. You are only altering the back but now that it has different dimensions, it is effectively shortening the trouser leg and adding a twist- twisting the leg seams.
You are changing the top/inside of the back leg panels and leaving the fronts-
causing a twist.

A jacket is far more complicated.

BUT- if, it can be achieved as simply as you say;
"It seems to me that if the back seam is let out, then gathered at the waist, that is all you need."

... the side panels/seams and the shoulder are not effected, you may be onto something but I doubt if any alterations that CAN be made, to make it a belt-back will make it anything like a vintage belt-back jacket. If you get enough "gather" into the waist, you may end up with a surplus at the top of the back. Without a yoke, it will be difficult to contain, or control.
Attaining the necessary waist shape, will no doubt cause problems with the side seams.

It would be very interesting to see how this exercise would pan out.

B
T

 

[flat-top]

I've done it. I had a very old suit with pants that were 3 sizes too small but the jacket fit perfectly. I used the material from one of the legs for the belt.
I had my dry cleaner attatch the belt...it's simply cosmetic. I didn't have them pleat it, or even really gather it. I just made sure the belt was at the smallest part of my back so it gives the skirting effect. I have a few off the rack belt back jackets by Claiborne, etc that are like this: just the belt, no "action".

 

[BellyTank]

That's kind of what I was getting at when quoting Reetpleat,
compared to the fully sculpted shape and no spare cloth.

Do-able to some degree, then.


B
T

 

[flat-top]

Do-able to some degree, then.


B
T

Yup. And just to add a little interest to a jacket you might never wear again otherwise, it's worth a try.

 

[Creeping Past]

Without knowing of this thread's existence I had a dream last night in which an old jacket turned out to be a lot more comfortable than I'd previously thought. As an extra piece of good fortune, it turned out it had a beautifully-constructed belted back. Plus it was a fetching shade of wildlife-startling plaid.

I say do it.

 

[BellyTank]

This thread was created 'round midnight yesterday/today- spooky....


B
T

 

[reetpleat]

I laid out a very nice custom tailored vintage belted back suit, and laid a regular jacket over it. It looks to me like all the proportions are the same from the shoulder seams, back, etc. The only difference is that the belt is laid over a little gather in the fabric. In other words, if someone came up behind you in a jacket that had a few loose inches, and pleated the back and laid a belt over it, that is what you would get. If a jackcet fits you snugly, of course that will not work. But most suit jacket have a few inches extra on me. Some, more than that. So, i am concluding it would be very easy to do.

 

[BellyTank]

That sounds good!
Can't wait to see the results.

I was trying to cover all bases of bad news with my monologue,
a few posts back.


B
T

 

[Dr Doran]

Interested in seeing the results, M.

 

[Forgotten Man]

If you're a '38 waist and the pants are too long for you SELL ME THE SUIT!

I did almost the same thing, and with an OVIATT suit! The coat fit well, but some idiot tailored the pants down to a 29" inseam... so, I lobbed off some fabric and made a half belt... the pants I turned into knickers... they still are ugly, not blousy at all.

The coat just has a two part half belt... long run, wish I never did that! It looks ok but without pleats in the back, it's just kinda boring. Would be pretty nice without the forced "fancy back" in my opinion.

Like I said, if the pants are too long, figure out someone who will fit it better and take the money from the suit and put it towards a suit with a fancy back!

Just a thought.

 

[reetpleat]

If you're a '38 waist and the pants are too long for you SELL ME THE SUIT!

I did almost the same thing, and with an OVIATT suit! The coat fit well, but some idiot tailored the pants down to a 29" inseam... so, I lobbed off some fabric and made a half belt... the pants I turned into knickers... they still are ugly, not blousy at all.

The coat just has a two part half belt... long run, wish I never did that! It looks ok but without pleats in the back, it's just kinda boring. Would be pretty nice without the forced "fancy back" in my opinion.

Like I said, if the pants are too long, figure out someone who will fit it better and take the money from the suit and put it towards a suit with a fancy back!

Just a thought.

Well, it is kind of complicated. The jacket was pat of a suit that had two jackets, single and double breasted, and one pair of pants that were really short rise, which never fit right. So i sold the single breasted jacket and pants. Wish I kept them and used one pair of pants to make a vest. Then I would have had a nice three piece in both single and double breasted, and maybe even could have made a belt for both jackets. How sick would that be to have a four piece suit with two jackets, vest and pants, both jackets having double breast? Then I found matching pants but really big, so the pants are way bigger than the jacket, which is 38 short. So, now I have pants that are too big and too long. I wear a 27 inseam, but i am willing to keep enough extra fabric to make it a 31 or so, but beyond that, just too much fabric. I suppose I could sell it. not on ebay these days though.

But belted back suits are so rare, expensive, and limited in color size etc, why not just make one.

I also have another suit that is three piece, and has about eight moth holes. Great pre war cut, from towncraft. The pants are really long, but with all the holes, i don't think it is worth much. So I am considering cutting the pants to about 29 inseam, hemming them to 27, and making a belt for the back.

Recent update, upon closer examination of the belted back jacket I have, the oe difference is that while a regular jacket tapers steadily in on the side seams, the belted back one goes more straight down to allow room for the belting. or maybe the other way around. One tapers, then goes straight down, and the other just tapers down. So, it might take a little refining of the seams, but it is still the only difference I see. the pleats in a belted back jacket tend to only be about two inches of fabric. how many suits couldn't stand to give that up?

 

[dakotanorth]

Mad scientist with a suit?

I agree with Forgotten Man- there isn't anything actually WRONG with the suit, it just doesn't fit you.
If it ain't broke, don't fix it!!!!

I've repaired, rebuilt, redyed, and salvaged several jackets, shirts, and pants but the cardinal rule I always follow is:
Don't ruin a perfectly good item to create or save something else.
Keep it, trade it against another suit that DOES fit you. Granted you may not find a belt-back suit, but you'll find a great one in time nonetheless.

Or hey, buy some fabric and try making one yourself! I'm more proud of the things I've MADE than the things I've bought.

 

[reetpleat]

I agree with Forgotten Man- there isn't anything actually WRONG with the suit, it just doesn't fit you.
If it ain't broke, don't fix it!!!!

I've repaired, rebuilt, redyed, and salvaged several jackets, shirts, and pants but the cardinal rule I always follow is:
Don't ruin a perfectly good item to create or save something else.
Keep it, trade it against another suit that DOES fit you. Granted you may not find a belt-back suit, but you'll find a great one in time nonetheless.

Or hey, buy some fabric and try making one yourself! I'm more proud of the things I've MADE than the things I've bought.

On the other hand, I take a suit, I make an alteration to it so I like it even better, then if I get tired of it or don't want it, I sell it. What is the problem. It isn't like I am ruining a suit simply by cutting the legs to what could, with false cuff, still be a 34 inch inseam. with the jacket being a 38 short, it is doubtful the pants will have ny call for anything longer. But we shall see.

 

[Wash In Lux]

I've done it a couple times and was very pleased. I'm only 5' 6" so often trousers are long on me. I wouldn't consider myself an expert tailor but, I have made trousers and jackets and do all of my own fitting. I own and have seen many different constructions of belted suits/jackets. Some are more elaborate than others but, as mentioned, the simplest ones had a couple pleats, or even no pleats at all and the belt just a decoration more or less, sewn on top of existing jacket material and then into the side seams.
I've never come across what I thought to be an original, where the belt had a center seam; always one piece. But how many people are you going to come across that will question your suit because the belt has a center seam? If you're an OCD stickler for authenticity, then using the excess bottoms of trousers will be an issue because you'll have a vertical center seam in the belt. Since this idea has popped in your head, I'm guessing your not too OCD about originality. That being said, there's a fine line between altering for the better or for the worse (see Marc Chevalier's thread about notching and narrowing lapels on 30's suit).
I used a suit I already had and just copied it. Made the belt EXACTLY the same, then sewed it on EXACTLY the same. If there was a double row of stitching 1/4" apart, then that's what I did. The one and only difference was the center seam in the belt. Both suits had/have (I sold one) pretty crazy material so you've got to look close to see the seam. I'll see if I can find some time to take pics. It's a crazy suit. Single with peak lapels and alternating black and greenish/gold stripes.