Beaver content

[Art Fawcett]

Since the overall implication of this thread seemed to be that myself and others aren't REALLY using pure beaver for our hats as if we did we couldn't make them at the price we do, I spoke to Greg Fiske , general manager of Winchester Hat Co. ( my felter) today and relayed the thread with what was said and with what I thought the implication was ( confirmed by PM) and he came unglued.

He is holding over 250K investment in beaver fur for his hats this year and was adamant that he is using what he say's he is. Frankly, myself and others would know in a heartbeat if he were sending anything other than what was ordered as the feel is pretty distinct.

At any rate, he is inviting ANYONE that has questions of the content to come to the plant and watch the process so that there can be no misunderstanding. Come one, come all.

How open can one be? That's only one of the reasons I use his product.

 

[AlanC]

Great response, Art. I think the transparency we see from Winchester and the hatters that use them is the best response to the so-called 'trade secrets' of the hat corporations.

 

[SonOfaPreacher]

I totaly argree and would go one step further, would not beaver be even more expensive being a wild critter and harder to get and rabbits being ranched by the hundreds or thousands? some of these figures just don't add up if you ask me. Please correct me if you wish, I just would like to know these things and really I don't mean to step on toes.
Soap

Leko at hatsupply.com sells beaver capelines for $49 and rabbit capelines for $22.75. Would that mean that about $25 is the price difference that we should be paying for 100 percent beaver? It seems like the retail difference is more like $300.

From the Wikipedia entry for beavers, it seems that they are endangered in Europe (only several thousand), but there are millions in North America, and in Tierra del Fuego they are an invasive pest. It would be interesting to know where, geographically, hatting beaver pelts are actually sourced from.

 

[animator]

Art, to me this thread just underscores the difference between some production hat companies who give no or confusing information and some custom hatters and their suppliers who are making an effort to be upfront and allow the customers to make an informed choice. The quickest way to loose my business is to try to confuse me with useless information. If "X" means nothing I don't want to hear about it.

My choice was made when I touched the felt samples you send me. I am absolutely no expert, but even a newbie could immediately tell the quality.

I think this thread is just showing people's frustration (especially newer people to the hobby) in trying to understand "X" like in algebra... but in this equation "X" has no value.

Please let your felter know that I and I'm sure many others here genuinely appreciate the product his fine work.

 

[AlanC]

^The beaver bodies from Winchester cost more than that, I'm pretty sure.

 

[Naphtali]

Tangential question

An acquaintance of mine, Jimmy Harrison of Double H Custom Hat Company in Darby, Montana, told me that pure beaver fur felt is inherently stiffer than rabbit fur felt.

I visited him the first time to have one of my Borsalino fedoras cleaned and blocked. When I tried on a Western hat, I remarked upon its lack of fit compared with my hat.

He mentioned the factoid about beaver fur felt stiffness while qualifying it by mentioning the difference in each hat's felt weight and [any added] stiffener of Western hats.

He makes only 100 percent beaver fur felt hats. While he generally makes Western hats, he makes fedoras on occasion. He said he could order lighter beaver fur felt but a fedora he would make for me would still be stiffer than my [rabbit] Borsalinos.

I think I have written the gist of his comments accurately. Is his information, as I have presented it, accurate?
***
The cleaned and blocked hat is dramatically improved from what I brought him.

 

[Art Fawcett]

The beaver bodies from Winchester cost more than that, I'm pretty sure.

You're right Alan, but not extremely different.

Kabuto, in a perfect scenario, you're logic would be right but there are factors you may not be taking into consideration. First, you are assuming that each body ( capeline) is perfect, no flaws. Not the case. Part of the deal of working with felters is that you accept the occasional flaw and move on. This adds to the cost overall because it DOES happen.

The second factor is human error. I can't speak for others, but I screw up occasionally and have to start over, making the overall cost a bit higher. Heck, my last hat for Animator, because it was my first welted edge and I can't let hats go out of here that I can't be proud of, took three bodies to accomplish. Since I can't go to my clients and say " I screwed up & you have to pay more" this must be added into the overall scheme. It's simply going to happen occasionally.

Please note the my price difference between rabbit & beaver is $80. Part of that difference is the risk factor ( mistakes with beaver cost MUCH more than rabbit). Another part that you may not be taking into consideration is the cost of stocking the raw bodies. This may sound like normal business, but note that auto dealers pay interest on their inventory even if the car doesn't sell and this applies to most businesses, hatting is no exception.

The final factor perhaps not being considered is what each hatter values his time at. I still consider myself a "hatter in training" and thus can't value my time as much as a "master" would, especially one with employees. Not I or anyone else has the right to judge what someone else's time and talent are worth, so I stay away from that, but know that this is a factor.

As a final note, Greg was very clear that he cannot speak for anyone in the industry except himself and his company. One never knows what the real content of the body is except the maker and this industry has been notorious for "snake oil". I consider this casting of doubt on my hats and anyone else's that use Winchester to be nothing more than trying to knock down what can be seen as a threat to the "snake oil" salesmen.

 

[Art Fawcett]

told me that pure beaver fur felt is inherently stiffer than rabbit fur felt.

Naphtali, I would dispute this but it may just be a differnce in interpretation. Instead of using the word "stiffer" he may have meant "denser" and in that case, it's true. The stiffness comes from the shelac used in the core of the body ( amount) and how the hat is made. Even how much heat applied makes a difference.

He's right, there are many variances in starting weight of the body. Westerns are typically 7oz. bodies with a heavy core, needed in westerns to maintain shape and increase durability. The next weight down is 6oz, then dress weight of 4oz. ( what I typically use) and then there are my "Artlite's" that start off at 2.5 oz.

Even the color of the body makes a difference in density, so a blanket statement like that is hard to back up.

Another factor is what each of our training and experiences are. My background is with vintage hats and dress hats only. I look at things much differently than my Western hatting brothers as the end results are for different uses and conditions. Each hatter has their own idea of what constitutes "right", and each one is valid.

 

[Brad Bowers]

Even the color of the body makes a difference in density...

Yeah, Art, I've noticed that pastels are not as dense as the darker colors, and my guess is that the bleaching process changes the ability of the fur in the pastels to felt tighter. It sure changes the way they finish out, too.

Brad

 

[Delthayre]

Teardrop crowned cavalry helmets

This has been a very informative thread.

Incidentally, what are the differences between a hood and a capeline?

 

[Art Fawcett]

Capeline is usually designate for womens hats Delthayre and hoods for mens. It's really just semantics though. You'll find several terms that have dual meanings in hatting.

You're dead on Brad, the bleaching breaks down the felt a bit, leading to less density. The MOST dense ( read that as a real bugger to stretch over the block) is black. I'm not sure why specifically, it's enough to just know that for me.

 

[ideaguy]

:eusa_clap :eusa_clap :eusa_clap In the time that I've been reading threads/replies on this site, this has been one of the most enjoyable,
informative, energetically responded to and fact-filled, ever.

Thank you one and all for answering most of the major questions raised
about hats in just a few pages- and a special thanks to Mr. Fawcett-
a "Master Gentleman".

M