Beaver 100% Hat Body

[Andykev]

Here are some shots of a 100% beaver hat body. The felt is very thick, compared to an Optimo, Borsalino, or Dobbs. This seems like a fine hat. However that being said, a blended fur hat retains greater advantages: same water repelency as beaver, but better finish. A blend of Nutria , wild hare, beaver and the best percentages of each is what you want.

I can say from looking at this genuine 100% Beaver hat body, I love the natural color, but the finished hat will be much heavier and thicker than a fine blended dress hat.

I would prefer a hat with Nutria...far better than beaver.

 

[Fedora]

Looks like I am gonna have to send you a beaver hat that has been finely pounced and pounced down to a vintage lightweight thickness. The finish is in the pouncing. Nothing wrong with the cheaper blends. They are just.....cheaper. Here are a couple of quotes from Hat Life. "All felt hats look similar at quick glance, and a customer may wonder why one costs $25, another $50, $100 or more. True, the difference can be seen and felt once he gets them in his hand, and it shows up even more after months of wearing. But the question remains: what makes hat quality?

The major items of cost are the fur, the trimmings, and, highly important, the workmanship. Selection of the fur determines the tightness of the felt and the sheen and resilience of the finish. It comes in dozens of different grades of rabbit, hare, nutria, beaver, etc., and may vary in price from $10 to $100 a pound. Each has its own property of felting tightly or loosely, and the tighter the felt the more "live" and shape-retaining the hat will be. Certain portions of the fur, the backs of land animals, the bellies of water animals, are superior in quality and command a higher price. There is also the cheaper "short stock" (reclaimed fur) and synthetic fiber which acts as a filler but does nothing to tighten the felt. They all make hats, but with a difference in "feel" and in pride of appearance after a little wear." And, this one. "Fur felt hats are chiefly made of rabbit fur. Some hare fur is used to make better hats, and is often mixed with rabbit fur to produce hats in various medium price grades. Beaver, the finest fur, and nutria are usually used in the best hats, and muskrat also supplies raw material for hatmaking."
I still say that the use of all beaver fur is a matter of economics. Not many folks are willing to pay upwards to a thousand bucks for a hat. You don't sell many of those, but on the other hand a rabbit blend can look wonderful and is a heck of alot cheaper. They sell a whole lot quicker.Just my 2 cents. regards, Fedora

 

[Andykev]

Stetson

"The Stetson Company used fur from the American and Canadian beaver and muskrat, "nutria" from the Agrentine coypu, and fur from the hare from Continental Europe and the Scottish and English coney (a European rabbit) to make their felt. The best quality fur from the beaver, muskrat, and coypu was the belly fur; from the hares and coney the back fur was best. The higher quality of fur used to make the felt, the more expensive the hat made from that felt sould be prime considerations in pricing Stetson hats. HATS MADE OF NUTRIA OR BEAVER WERE NOTED AMONG THE STETSON TRADEMARKS AS THESE WERE THE HIGHEST QUALITY FELTS"

Obviously, the heavier Beaver hat body shown above is raw: hours of sanding, brushing, and finishing will produce an excellent hat. It is a tight hat, good fur, great touch, but is will end up being a heavyweight felt hat. It is a dress hat weight. Not a cowboy hat.

 

[Art Fawcett]

OKOKOK....I've held off on this topic as long as i can!!! Fedora, you are mostly right in your statements. I would add something though. Beaver is AMONG the best felts to use, not THE best felt. I would argue that both Nutria and Mink produce as high, if not higher quality hat than pure beaver. Correct me if I can be proven wrong, but the most expensive hats Stetson ever sold were pure clear Nutria, not beaver. As well, the most expensive hats Borsalino ever sold were Mink. I have owned both and can attest to their feel as magnificent. I am not knocking pure beaver, I just won't limit the statement of " the best" to that fur alone.

 

[Andykev]

The Stetson Book

If you refer to the Stetson History Book, you will see Fedora that the best hats given to executives and valued employees upon retirement were NUTRIA. I have held hats made from Nutria, and I can attest to the fact that the felt is tight, smooth, and dense. A fine fine felt. Beaver is ok, and great, but for a real fine dress hat, Nutria, or Nutria and hare are the best in finish and luxury.

But I'm a newbie.LOL

 

[Sergei]

Beaver, the finest fur, AND nutria are usually used in the best hats, and muskrat also supplies raw material for hatmaking."

I do see an "AND" between beaver and nutria as being the used in the "best" hats. Your quote Fedora.

Are we maybe (all of us) talking past each other? I have seen several all 100% beaver hats, but I didn't really experience the "WOW" until I have seen the beaver/nutria blend. And that's not just the Optimo version. I saw an old Stetson with the same mix. It really had that pop. More sheen and softness over the 100% beaver.

But honestly, "pounce" is just a lot of sandpapering. That's what Akubra does. It's Step 10 on their website. I think, what is actually missing is the mercury. The mercury is what really softened the beaver. And Joe Jr. has his vintage beaver felt, which was mercury finished. No one does this anymore. Right?

-Sergei

 

[Art Fawcett]

You are right Sergei, to my knowledge mercury isn't used anywhere . I also think that is has alot to do with the overall feel of the hat. What I am responding to is Fedora's absolute insistence that beaver is the be all, end all of felt bodies both here and on other boards. Yes, it makes a terrific felt that in many peoples opinion is the best, but no matter where it is written, where it is said, it is still just an opinion, and we know what they say about that. ) The fact that other furs, both pure and in blended form produce fine felt that is more expensive than clear beaver must have some validation. By not validating other furs, ie: mink, nutria, we are keeping our focus too narrow and not gaining the knowledge we all seek here. My interests go far beyond the Indy world, into an entire world of hats that have long been forgotten and would hope to help bring more interested people along that journey. I don't believe that can be done with a closed mind and eyes narrowed.

stepping down from the soap box now...

 

[Matt Deckard]

By not validating other furs, ie: mink, nutria, we are keeping our focus too narrow and not gaining the knowledge we all seek here.

Here here!

I agree whole heartedly.

 

[Sergei]

Art, you and me are on the same page. I never disagreed with you or Andy.

-Sergei

 

[fedoralover]

A journey in which I hope to tag along on.

regards fedoralover

 

[Fedora]

OK, perhaps you guys are right. Perhaps beaver is not the ultimate felt(assuming the felting and finishing process was superb) But, every source that I have ever read, and every account(other than here) has always stated that beaver was the highest quality felt, and the most expensive. I will of course stand by my assumptions, until someone gives me a source that states otherwise. Yeah, I am hardhead, but you guys have to realize that when you have heard something stated for 52 years, it sorta becomes accepted and part of one's consciousness. And when everything you read puts beaver on the top, well, what is one to think? Am I to assume that a lower priced felt is superior? Beaver felt has always been the highest priced felt you could buy. If it did not make a higher quality hat, then why was it in demand, and cost so darn much? Why did several hat companies price their hats by the amount of beaver contained? You know, like 3x, 5x, etc? And Sergei, yes "and" was used between beaver and nutria. But beaver was given first, and then nutria. LOL Like I said, I can be convinced, but fellows, it is gonna take more than heresay to do so. It is gonna take sources with documentation. So much knowledge about hats and felt have been lost over the years, and much of what is fed to us nowadays may have more to do with marketing that actual facts. Like a claim made by a hatter that modern felt is better than vintage. I don't buy that. So as the beaver/quality souces reaveal themselves, please share with this old hardhead. LOL regards, Fedora

 

[Matt Deckard]

Splitting hares

I wrote what I know in several posts in this Cafe.

http://pub63.ezboard.com/faustinscafeamericainfrm9.showMessageRange?topicID=83.topic&start=1&stop=20

from what I know, stiff hats and dress hats are different.

 

[Marc]

Hmmm... I think we have different opinions on what really makes a felt great. For some the finish is the most important thing, while for others the feel, the floppyness, the durability whatever is more important.

Also take into consideration, that some felts are treated with special techniques that can change these factors to a certain degree.

For some people beaver is and will always be the best of the best as it has some characteristics other felts don't et vice versa.

Regards,

Marc

 

[Rundquist]

Originally posted by Fedora
OK, perhaps you guys are right. Perhaps beaver is not the ultimate felt(assuming the felting and finishing process was superb) But, every source that I have ever read, and every account(other than here) has always stated that beaver was the highest quality felt, and the most expensive. I will of course stand by my assumptions, until someone gives me a source that states otherwise. Yeah, I am hardhead, but you guys have to realize that when you have heard something stated for 52 years, it sorta becomes accepted and part of one's consciousness. And when everything you read puts beaver on the top, well, what is one to think? Am I to assume that a lower priced felt is superior? Beaver felt has always been the highest priced felt you could buy. If it did not make a higher quality hat, then why was it in demand, and cost so darn much? Why did several hat companies price their hats by the amount of beaver contained? You know, like 3x, 5x, etc? And Sergei, yes "and" was used between beaver and nutria. But beaver was given first, and then nutria. LOL Like I said, I can be convinced, but fellows, it is gonna take more than heresay to do so. It is gonna take sources with documentation. So much knowledge about hats and felt have been lost over the years, and much of what is fed to us nowadays may have more to do with marketing that actual facts. Like a claim made by a hatter that modern felt is better than vintage. I don't buy that. So as the beaver/quality souces reaveal themselves, please share with this old hardhead. LOL regards, Fedora

There were so many different felt-making processes over the last 200 years, that I?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢m sure that everybody?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢s right in their thinking to some degree. I?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢ve heard that beaver belly fur is hard to beat. What I will add as far as the price of beaver pelts goes is that the top hat craze during the 1800?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢s drove the beaver to the brink of extinction. Rarity always plays a part in the cost of something. Today the beaver is no longer on the endangered species list. The price difference in pelts could come from the fact that nutria and rabbits are considered pests. The difference in the hat-product virtues of the different pelts might not translate to the open market price of each. Cheers

 

[Andykev]

Hey Fedora

When is your birthday? I'm gonna go down to our local zoo and buy you your very own beaverLOL

And who the hell said modern is better than vintage? I"ll put on my gloves for that one. Today's modern CUSTOM felt (ie.Optimo) beats hands down the run of the mill vintage. BUT there are vintage hats that quite frankly CANNOT be reproduced today (technique, felt, bodies, mercury, you name it). SO the real question is: lets compare apples with apples and oranges with oranges.

 

[Fedora]

Thanks Andy, but we got plenty of those varmits in these parts. We even brought in gators to help with the population control. I just read the whole Stetson book we have referred to here at times. It seems that Nutria and Beaver are both at the top of the fine fur list. There is one page in the book that shows two hats given to employess for long service. One was nutria and one was beaver. There is also a little article on the worlds most expensive hat. It took months to make and even toured the country and put on display. 15 grand. Oh, it was beaver. The book also stated that in the early years at Stetson, Mr. Stetson insisted on using Nutria in some of his hats. It was considered bad business by other hatters at the time due to the high price of Nutria fur. This was late 1800's and prior to the cultivation of Nutria in La-I think. Which may be the reason the fur was so expensive. The animal was from South America and was trapped the way that other varmits were, in the wild. Regardless, I own a Stetson Nutria hat and it is salivation material. LOL Oh, I guess I am gonna have to send Matt a soft, lightweight, pure beaver hat to examine. Seems that will be the only way he will get rid of the unfounded notion that beaver felt by its nature is stiff. You should not judge beaver felt by cowboy hats, at least modern cowboy hats. The first Staple Stetsons were soft hats, not stiff. Fedora

 

[Andykev]

Heck

Send one to me, I'm not proud. And I'm not demeaning your OPINION. I have mine too. And I'm not an expert. Just a real, very badly obcessed, enthusiast.

You beat the beaver drum, and I won't plug my ears. Your words are welcome.

Remember, the soap box is only about 12 inches off the ground.

 

[Fedora]

Andykev wrote:,"Remember, the soap box is only about 12 inches off the ground." It is indeed. Good thing too. We might all be suffering from broken bones if it were higher. And then it would be harder to eat our hat.LOL Fedora

 

[kent]

Hrmm, noticing mercury in the thread reminds me..

Have any of you encountered a hat soaked in mercury? Kinda off period, but maybe one of you have an old top hat or the like with the luster. Is there a way to re-create the luster without the insanity side-effects, or has it been completely forgotten nowdays?

 

[Andykev]

Mercury

Mercury was used in the felting process to tighten up and improve the quality. New chemicals (???) are used today. Mercury is obviously a heavy metal, and has very serious side effects. Don't eat too much salmon or other fish kind of thing. The bad physical effects were due to repeated exposure to mercury and it's vapors.

I doubt you can determine today which hat was made by mercury and which one wasn't. Unless you are a chemist and have a lab for testing.