Battledress - expanded

[H.Johnson]

Permission to expand the thread?

It seems that there is some interest in and knowledge of British and Empire (Commonwealth)1930s - 1940s battledress, so without wishing to offend people by dominating the thread (superciliously, of course) how about some discussion. It's long been a topic of considerable interest to me, anyway. Here's a list of what we could include in more por :
Battledress, Serge. (a.k.a. '1937 Pattern')
Battledress, Utility Overall (brown canvas)
Battledress, Serge 1940 Pattern
Battledress, Olive Drab, War Aid (made in US)
Battledress, Denim Green (early pattern, until 1943)
Battledress, Denim Green (late, issued until 1960s)
Battledress, Serge 1946 Pattern (copy Canadian BD, shows pocket buttons).
Battledress, Serge 1947 Pattern ('American' collar, shows pocket buttons).
Battledress, 1949 Pattern (small collar, shows pocket buttons).
Plus, there are the semi-official 'Indian Army' Aertex BD blouses.

Leaving aside the US versions and 'Ike' jackets (which I will respectfully leave to our American loungers, the post-war 'spin-offs' include BD made for:
France - until 1960s, 'US' style collar, features of 1940 Pattern. Cheap!
Belgium - well after WW2
Greece - made in UK to 1937 Pattern.

I have a number of the above, but my 'wearing' favourites are the Canadian (for its quality) and the 1947 Pattern (for its style). This weather (hot!) I wear the Indian Aertex most, though!

 

[donCarlos]

Permission granted.
Today´s detective work to find out the most about my blouse made me quite interested in this, so please, go ahead and share your knowledge and photos.

 

[BellyTank]

I've had a few sets of Canadian BD('39 pat.), nicely made, nice cloth and OD painted, metal donut buttons. Of course, I've had NZ BD too, in my tender youf.
I remember some difference with the pockets and there was a neck tab on the collar closure.

That Belgian one looks more like an American "Ike" jacket style.

Let's not forget the Australian, post-war BD- somewhere between British and Ike. Nice cloth. Dinerman has the Australian trousers- deep waistband.


B
T

 

[Fiver64]

washing option

As H.Johnson said, you may not want to wash it, BUT if you are very carefull and use only cold water and very mild detergent (in the US we have something called WOOLITE). Fill up the bottom of the bathtub, add the detergent, swish it around a bit, then soak the coat for 10 minutes or so. Rinse again with cold water (as unused detergent can really do a number on your skin) and HANG DRY in a cool dry place. Don't try to rush the drying by putting any heat near it. A nice cool , windy day on the line does wonders!

It's really not unlike how most GI's of any army had to wash their stuff in the field. A river, lake or stream would do! I've done this many, many times with wool uniforms and never had a shrinkage problem yet. Dry cleaning is not only expensive, but seems (IMHO) to leave it's own annoying odor. On the other hand, dry cleaning does leave the fabric looking a bit less rumpled, or "field worn." Best of luck and a very fine jacket at a fair price!

 

[Fiver64]

great topic

With the blessing of Don Carlos............... I'd gladly participate in BD discussion! I am no expert, but any stretch, but I do own a nice original "austere pattern" Brit WW2 and a post-war set of denims.

Not sure if everyone interested is aware, but WHAT PRICE GLORY (Jerry Lee) makes some quite respectable repro BD is several variations. They tend to be a bit heavier wool than originals, but construction is quite acceptable. He also did a run of the AERTEX (sp?) shirts recently. If you want to find something for lounging about, it's easier than trying to find a decent human-size original BD.

A source for the denim version (original, but post-war) is Ernie Klapmeier. I can't remember his website, but you can find him on facebook. I'll post a pic of them when I get a chance.

 

[H.Johnson]

OK, I agree with the comments on WPG material, but I think they claim to have specified a more accurate serge for the latest batch (according to their UK ditributor).

People should be aware that WPG's BD blouses (of all patterns) are much longer in the body than even the long size originals (or, to put it another way, the sleeves are much too short). The whole point of a BD blouse is that it is waist length, not hip length. Compare the distance between the pockets and waist band between WPG and originals to see what I mean.

Anyway, they are (IMO) much too expensive. Originals are usually much cheaper and (in the UK and parts of Europe) are easy to find in surplus shops. If you are prepared to compromise on the exact material and what's on the label isn't the most important thing in life you can find the postwar Greek versions (similar to WW2) for less than 20 GBP. Postwar (e.g. 1947 and 1949) are even cheaper (I usually pay 15 GBP).

BT - the New Zealand version is featured in Brayley's and Ingram's KD and JG, but I have never had the chance to inspect one. I know it has a neck tab like the Canadian and 1946 Pattern blouses, but what sort of buttons does it have? Are there any other distinctive features?

A few more countries that we can add to the records of the American-made Battle Dress Olive Drab War Aid - Albania, Yugoslavia, Greece (Mike Chappell, Battle Dress of the British Army 1939-1960.

I still have the 1949 Pattern BD I was issued with as a Cadet in 1962 and I still wear it as a fell uniform for special occasions such as '1940s 'summer outdoor concerts. The guys in their ill-fitting Indian-made WW2 BD reproductions 'look down their noses' at me thinking I don't know what I'm doing, but, hey, it's 1940s (just), I was issued with it and I'll damn well wear it as long as it fits!

 

[Creeping Past]

Yes, WPG's Aertex battledress is sold as a long-body version. But is this an error in the manufacture of a reproduction, an adjustment in the pattern to fit modern re-enactors' tastes or because WPG is adapting a modern Indian sub-continential military pattern?

 

[H.Johnson]

Mr. Past,

I have an Indian Army original and it has the same length body as the other BD (serge and denim) blouses I have that are contemporary with it - it doesn't have the same size label as a British or Canadian (etc.) blouse. I once compared it with a WPG reproduction of the same item (same sleeve length and body width) and the reproduction was almost 4" longer in the body! Note that the WPG link you supply refers to the blouse as 'waist length' in the blurb. Yes, for a NBA player...

If you look at SoF's catalogue (they sell WPG BD) you will see a statement to the effect that they are made to fit 'the longer modern body'. This is, of course, a complete fallacy. I don't see any evidence that a man six feet tall has a longer body than his counterpart would have had in 1939. There probably were more short men, but this was taken into account by the banded sizing system. IMO manufacturers of reproductions are economising on the number of sizes they offer at the expense of the fit.

If I try on a WPG BD blouse that fits me well in the body (length and girth) the arms are much too short.

I suspect that your second point is the salient one - most men today wear their jackets longer than was the style in 1939. Fair enough, but this rather defeats the object of being a re-enactor. IMO, of course.

Yes, WPG's Aertex battledress is sold as a long-body version. But is this an error in the manufacture of a reproduction, an adjustment in the pattern to fit modern re-enactors' tastes or because WPG is adapting a modern Indian sub-continential military pattern?

 

[Creeping Past]

I too suspect a mix of size economies and modern tastes. My evidence for the latter are the increasingly defensive (one might say totally unnecessary) statements on various WW2 repro vendors' sites reminding their customers that the Germans wore their tunics and jackets short in during war!

 

[BellyTank]

The woolen and the denim BD were designed with a high waist trouser and a
short waist jacket- the two were intended to be connectible, with the matching buttons/holes in trouser and jacket. The situation with the (repro)long waisted jacket- does that mean the trousers don't have the correct "high" rise? Perhaps the wearer will have a caterpillar/accordion jacket waist.


B
T

 

[H.Johnson]

The WPG trousers I have seen are reasonably high-waisted. If we look at pictures of models wearing most repro stuff (why discuss WPG alone here?) the waistband of the blouse is noticeably lower that the trouser waistband, so I don't think the average reproduction blouse would attach to the average pair of trousers without the effect you describe so graphically. Maybe people wonder what those buttons and buttonholes are for and don't use them?

Maybe re-enactors let their BD trouser sit lower on the waist than would be the case in WW2?

I just don't think modern repro BD blouses 'look right' when compared to those in old photographs. Most noticable is the gap between the pockets and the waistband and the distance between the button holes.

 

[Mike1973]

My Battledress

Been a fair old while since I donned battledress, and the photo below was taken back in 2000.
I used to wear a '49 when I was a teenager, and very occasionally a Denim blouse, but I found the waists a tad too high with normal jeans. This thread may make me dig them out again though...

 

[H.Johnson]

Mike

That's what I call a good waist length!

Some vintage jeans have a high enough waist, but IMHO a BD blouse worn casually looks better with grey flannels or 'fishtails'. The main thing is for the trousers to have a full leg.

See my PM about Thursday...

 

[Mike1973]

Cheers for the reminder Alan! Just replied!

Yes, you are right about wearing the proper waisted trousers with the BD. My old '49 just didn't work with normal waisted jeans in the early '90's, there was always a gap at the back. Now I like wearing vintage pattern Levis I may give the blouses another go...

Also, I could never get the correct size BD. Mine were Size 9, which fitted everywhere except the sleeves, which were too short. reminds me of the excellent descriptions of BD's issued in Spike Milligans war memoirs

Mike

That's what I call a good waist length!

Some vintage jeans have a high enough waist, but IMHO a BD blouse worn casually looks better with grey flannels or 'fishtails'. The main thing is for the trousers to have a full leg.

See my PM about Thursday...

 

[H.Johnson]

Mike,

I'm a size 10 - the 1949 pattern BD I wear now was a bit big when I was issued with it at aged 17 but we were supposed to 'grow into them'. For some reason I never handed it in when I left.

Did you know that in the 1980s Levi Strauss made a denim jacket modelled very closely on the original BD Serge (aka 1937 Pattern) blouse.

It's fun to wear it as fancy dress, nearly fifty years later!

Cheers for the reminder Alan! Just replied!

Yes, you are right about wearing the proper waisted trousers with the BD. My old '49 just didn't work with normal waisted jeans in the early '90's, there was always a gap at the back. Now I like wearing vintage pattern Levis I may give the blouses another go...

Also, I could never get the correct size BD. Mine were Size 9, which fitted everywhere except the sleeves, which were too short. reminds me of the excellent descriptions of BD's issued in Spike Milligans war memoirs

 

[benstephens]

I think the NZ BD has three ventilation holes under the arm and always tends to have more pronouced stitching for some reason.

AS for repro's, I agree it is a falicy about the longer body. If you get a correct original BD for your measurements it should fit fine, I am unsure where they got the 'longer modern body' from. After all, it did go upto size 18, and even then some specials were made for even bigger people.

Kindest Regards

Ben

 

[MrBern]

green denim.

We had pix of a green denim battle dress over at the Ike thread
heres it is.
http://www.thefedoralounge.com/showpost.php?p=346019&postcount=71

A few years ago I had one that was made in Belgium.

Werent they popular with Uboat crews?

Oh, I had the Greek issue BDwool trousers. They were marked `51.
I got them at SportmansGuide a while back
http://www.sportsmansguide.com/net/browse/military-surplus-pants.aspx?c=2&s=302

 

[donCarlos]

I completely forgot about the photo of me wearing it... I bought a pair of khakis to wear with it today. So, behold! My "flying legends" outfit (because I´m going to wear it in Duxford this weekend)

 

[H.Johnson]

Then I'll keep a look out for you!

I hope you enjoy Flying Legends.

 

[H.Johnson]

Sorry, the 'captured at Dunkerque - issued to U-Boot crews' thing is a myth.

The Kreigsmarine U-Boot canvas suit is a different item. Here is one. I'm sure you will see the different features as well as the different material.

Werent they popular with Uboat crews?