B-17 may be grounded

[dhermann1]

From the Buffalo News:
http://www.buffalonews.com/cityregion/story/372010.html

 

[locobuster]

Even the Commemorative Air Force and Lone Star Museum of Flight have been selling off some of their aircraft to keep their more famous aircraft in the air, so this may well be something we'll be seeing a lot of in the future. The combination of incresing maintenance, repair, insurance, hangar rental, and fuel prices already have many warbird owners selling off their prized possessions. I've already seen a pretty big decline in the number of WWII-vintage aircraft at airshows in the past decade, even though more and more are being restored every year, and those that do appear usually seem to be the ones that are cheaper to keep in the air, trainers and such.

Without extremely deep pockets to back the endeavor to keep these priceless artifacts in the air (like Paul Allen's Flying Heritage Collection or the Collings Foundation and their bomber tour) this trend will continue until airshows become a thing of the past. At that point the only places we will see vintage aircraft are well-funded museums, which is a sad fate for something that was created to be up among the clouds.

We'd better enjoy the sight and sound of these lethally elegant beauties in the skies while we still can.

 

[kampkatz]

With all the pork spending the Federal gov't does, it wouldn't cost much, comparatively,to fund the WW2 warbirds as they perform throughout the states. Static displays just don't give enough for the senses to appreciate. However, unless one visits the Smithsonian, it won't be likely to find such treasures elsewhere.

 

[Mr.Microphone]

Wow.. I never would have guessed it based on the amount of flights they had booked the day I went up for a flight. This is a sad bit of news.

 

[David Conwill]

Interestingly, another part of the problem if I'm not mistaken is the inferior quality of modern aviation gasoline. I once encountered a fellow who worked for a company that operated Curtiss C-46 Commandos and he mentioned that they would have to stop using them in a few years because there wasn't going to be any more lead in the fuel - also, I think octanes have gone down since WWII and performance as a result. It's very sad.

On the insurance issue, I have the privilege of living only a couple hours from the Kalamazoo "Air Zoo" which used to keep almost all of its rather impressive collection air worthy. Unfortunately, after 9/11 insurance rates skyrocketed and they aren't able to fly them anymore - as a result many of them won't be flyable in a few years. Very, very sad.

-Dave

 

[thunderw21]

Interestingly, another part of the problem if I'm not mistaken is the inferior quality of modern aviation gasoline. I once encountered a fellow who worked for a company that operated Curtiss C-46 Commandos and he mentioned that they would have to stop using them in a few years because there wasn't going to be any more lead in the fuel - also, I think octanes have gone down since WWII and performance as a result. It's very sad.

I've heard this about the lead and the lower octane also. Having been to the Commemorative (formerly Confederate) Air Force museum it truly is sad to see some of their aircraft sold off. Hopefully they will have good homes.

 

[warbird]

This was a problem at one time for aircraft and even old Harleys. It really isn't anymore. There are products available which can be added that are as good if not better than the lead ever was, Marvel Mystery Oil being one example, . And changes n valve seats and such make this is non-existent problem really, or it should if they are well trained in old warbird mechanics. I will say also that octane is lower than it used to be across the board, but not really for Av-gas or racing fuel. It still burns plenty hot.

What is doing a number on the old engines, is this; time and age just like all of us. If you heat and cool metal long enough it gets worn and brittle. We don't really know the life of some of these engines, they have kept going but at some point the law of diminishing returns prevails. At some point they will no longer accept new parts and keep going. This isn't like an old flathead here, or and old model T engine. These engines have a high demand on them and are obviously vital to not only the plane but lives as well.

Some of the old DC-3's still flying have incredible hours on them and despite repairs and such some are now falling apart, outright structural failure w/o structural rebuilds. I crashed, (chash landed) one of the two high houred ones I flew. It shouldn't have ever flown again IMO, but it did. And it crashed again killing a crew. It doesn't surprise me some folks are selling off stuff to prioritize what they will choose to personally save and keep in flying condition. These are one thing that doesn't just 'belong in a museum'. I always hated seeing museums get birds that could have been flying, it made me sick. I don't want to look at some plane in a building or on a tarmac for that matter just sitting there. Museums are great for certain things, but if it could be flying it oughta be flying. I have no use for pictures dressed like a WWII pilot, I don't want any of that crap. I want to hear the engines roar to life, I love the sound of an inertial starter unwinding, I love the smell of the collected oil burning off the bottom of an old radial. I love the sound of the old radial or the old supercharged V12. I love the feel of the old sticks and rudder pedals and feeling the tail come up. I can't say as I love how cold they are, especially flying a DC3 to Alaska, yuck, but hey nothing is perfect. Life is about experience, not fantasizing and dreaming, thats all good and well for goals, not the end of it. People have to keep access to experience what these old planes, in the early days of flight still, were like.

Gotta keep em flying . Just gotta.

 

[Murph351]

Did my part and went up in the Liberty Belle just a couple months ago.
I'm still smiling.
It would be a shame if future generations could only experience these old girls on the XBox.

 

[warbird]

Did my part and went up in the Liberty Belle just a couple months ago.
I'm still smiling.
It would be a shame if future generations could only experience these old girls on the XBox.

Egads! I'd rather crawl around on a real one at a museum, than to fly an xbox thingamajig.

 

[Tux Toledo]

It would really be shame if she was grounded.

 

[David Conwill]

This was a problem at one time for aircraft and even old Harleys. It really isn't anymore. There are products available which can be added that are as good if not better than the lead ever was, Marvel Mystery Oil being one example, . And changes n valve seats and such make this is non-existent problem really, or it should if they are well trained in old warbird mechanics. I will say also that octane is lower than it used to be across the board, but not really for Av-gas or racing fuel. It still burns plenty hot.

All of my information is secondhand. I do remember thinking, however, that it seemed odd that aircraft would be affected this way when I could still run a mid-sixties big-block Corvette just by using race gas and lead additive. But then, a Chevy 427 is a primitive pig compared to a Pratt & Whitney radial, I'm sure. Still, I could just see the Feds making it illegal to use lead additives in aircraft...

-Dave

 

[SpitfireXIV]

usually isn't the "donation" for a flight tax-deductible...? (trying to justify a flight this summer on the "Nine-O-Nine" B-17)

guess that might be a mighty fine way to spend my "economic stimulus" cheque.

 

[warbird]

It is run by a (c)3 foundation so yes at least part of it would be. A contribution w/o the flight would be all tax deductible, but if you get a ride from the flight I'm not sure if it is all deductible.

 

[Forgotten Man]

This is sad news indeed... if there is anything I would miss the most is the sound of vintage aircraft motors! I live under a flight path... and I've seen and heard many warbirds fly over. B-25's, B-17 "Nine "O" Nine" with B-24 "Witch Craft"... I've seen P-38's, P-51's, Coursair's and every Memorial Day and Pearl Harbor day, there's a group of guys who fly AT6's in a formation of about 5 or 6... They’ll fly over my house early in the morning... there is nothing more stirring or chilling then to wake up and hear those motors thunder over my house!

I hope things will change... I'd hate the world and become ever so bitter towards life if these planes cease to fly due to high insurance and fuel prices! Those dirty money hungry pack of cut throats!

Oh, the sounds... the wonderful sounds!

Here's a clip of "Liberty Belle" I found on youtube...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HNwAkCd4iRs&feature=related

And here's a neat clip of a P-38, F4F and an original Zero starting and flying... *sigh*
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DW1blZlUZMI&feature=related

 

[Murph351]

It would be a shame for people to not be able to experience this view:

Photos from my flight in the Liberty Belle right before I blew the hell out of Van Nuys

 

[Diamondback]

The other killshot is nobody making new engines anymore--you can replace pistons and valves all you like, but the engine-block itself still has a finite life, and most of them have already gone well above what they were designed for, which is a tribute to 1930s/'40s over-engineering.

Unfortunately, I don't see P&W about to even consider reopening the line, or even allowing anyone else to license-build 'em. And as I recall, engines comparable to the original Klimovs were the big problem when the Russians reopened the Yak-3 line for collector-birds...

 

[David Conwill]

the Russians reopened the Yak-3 line for collector-birds...

Wait - what?? Really? You've got to tell me more.

-Dave

 

[Diamondback]

Back in the '90s, and it was a limited run IIRC. Serial numbers picked up right where they left off during the War... think they used Allisons. If you know someone with a lot of old Air & Space/Smithsonian back issues, they ran an article on 'em.

Reference from the designers: http://www.yak.ru/ENG/PROD/inter.php Not much, but it gives a lead on where to look: their foreign partner on the project was Gannel Co., supposedly from here in the USA.

 

[Mr.Microphone]

On a side note. Does anyone know what the round opening was for in plexiglass nose? I have asked a few bombardier veterans and no one knew. The only thing I could think of would be to wipe off the glass in front of the norden, but I can't imagine putting your hand out there at 25k feet.

 

[Diamondback]

Gunport for good ol' Mother Deuce, IIRC.