Authenticity in the Vintage World?

[Marc Chevalier]

 

[Marc Chevalier]

 

[Marc Chevalier]

 

[Marc Chevalier]

 

[Marc Chevalier]

 

[Marc Chevalier]

 

[Marc Chevalier]

 

[Dr Doran]

Interesting conversation on the thread and Marc, wonderful and highly useful stills -- perhaps they could be made into a "sticky" with (or without, not my decision) the rest of this thread.

As for the conversation: I have encountered as many different degrees of superciliousness regarding period-correctness as I have encountered degrees of persons dressing period-correct or not. in other words, I've seen, on the one hand, people care deeply about others' details and also folks who treat any attempt with good humor; and on the other hand, I've seen people wear a good fedora and horrid sneakers and I've seen folks who have everything perfectly period correct, almost overly so.

One thing I've noticed: when I have heard someone say something superciliously or snobbily period-correct, I usually nod and smile (as is my wont) and then I hear them within 120 seconds complain how someone ELSE has been supercilious to them.

Case in point: an acquaintance of mine, a vintage veteran, complained about the poor dress sense of some SF Fedora Lounge people he met a few years ago. I said "yes, well, everyone starts sometime, and not everyone was hanging around at Club Deluxe in the early 1990s like you were" (and I was). Then within two (2) minutes he complained about how someone at a WW2 reenactment event ridiculed his "flour bag" (I have no idea what this is -- apparently Nazi soldiers carried a bag for flour? Dunno) as inauthentic. His complaint to me was "it looks authentic and no one can tell the difference unless you look inside."

This speaks of course to the distinction between reenactors and vintage folks but it also speaks to the contagion of ridiculing others' efforts to look period-correct.

I suppose what seems supercilious to one person can seem simply admirably perfectionist to another.

No one bothers me if I wear something they don't like. At most, they say "well, that's much nicer than what you had on the last time I saw you." And my ego is OK with that.

 

[Lauren]

Marc, those are truly inspiring images. I like how they're not the Hollywood vision of perfection, but real people wearing real clothing. It's fun to get dolled up, to be sure, but it's nice to know there's everyday achievable period looks as well- without spending hours and hours primping.

Doran, that's a wonderful observation. We all start somewhere, and we have to remember that there's some of us who are die hard nuts for accuracy because we love it- but we can't expect everyone to be as crazy for it as we are. I know I wasn't in the same place I am now 15 years ago when I started, and I know I have a lot more to learn. Best to assume you don't know everything, because you're always pleased to find more info. I used to say "they didn't do that back then" but then I kept finding proof to the opposite, so now I try to keep my trap shut and look for evidence before I make assumptions lol Perfect example- the other day I was leafing through a late 30s magazine and there was a picture of kids selling lemonade in printed paper cups (like dixie cups)- I wouldn't have thought of that as period. And an ad in a mid 20s magazine for seamless hosiery. Who knew? And an ad in an early 30s magazine, and instructions in an early 30s German magazine for installing zippers in clothing... when I was told they weren't put there until mid 30s.
I guess I'm just saying, let us be nuts about it if we want, but not take the fun out of it for other people if they just want to have fun. If they go around not period and quote how period accurate they are, that's one thing, but we shouldn't critique people who aren't striving to be accurate with our own personal standards of accuracy. We need to just relax and have fun- isn't our love of it and our passion for it what attracted us to this hobby or lifestyle originally?
And heaven knows on a daily basis I mix eras just cause I love the stuff, but when there's a time specific event it's fun for me personally to see how period accurate I can be in my dress, if not my mannerisms and speech lol

 

[Marc Chevalier]

Lauren, you continue to be my Fedora Lounge heroine!


.

 

[Lauren]

Likewise, Marc, but minus the -ine.

 

[Dr Doran]

let us be nuts about it if we want, but not take the fun out of it for other people if they just want to have fun.

A sensible rule of thumb!

 

[reetpleat]

One place I do get picky is when I lived in SF and went to large swing events. i loved being able to imagine you were back in the day, and since i have an eye for detail, I often noticed those who were not so period correct. Not that they had to be or were expected to be, but it kind of ruined my illusion.

Not that I would go around telling people. I kept it to myself. But it kind of detracted from my illusion. Of course, I don't mean people who were wearing socks a year too late. I am not always so perfect either. but to be at a big event, i much prefer those who are all pretty accurate, as opposed to teh guy that wears a modern suit with a hand painted tie. God Bless them for trying, but I do notice and it does detract.

Not that it would ruin my evening. I was thrilled to be around a great crowd and see a live band and dance all night. But I much preferred the earlier days when almost everyone was in vintage, as opposed to when it became more widespread and people were less into it.

I also get a little dissapointed when I see a great old restored car, then see the driver in a t shirt and pink auto supply store cap and shorts. Kind of detracts from the overall impression.

But of course, people are not here to please me.

 

[Guttersnipe]

A point that's been raised, but I think could us a little more flushing out, is that fashion is inherently transitional, and at times, concurrent. So, when we discuss mixing eras, decades, periods, etc., I don't think any means literally one cannot wear a tie from 1939 with a suit from 1940.

When I put together a vintage outfit to go out on the town, I try to capture the period correct "essence" of the era's style.

What those of us who dislike "mixing eras," I think, are suggesting is that, when one takes two items that quintessentially represent an era, say a high gore very early 20's suit and a super skinny 1960's sharkskin tie for example, it creates a image in which we feel the components are disparate from each other.

For me, one of the principle joys of dressing vintage is to create "impression," just as I do in my hobby as a Civil War reenactor. To me, it is GREAT fun to pair a 40's tie clip with a '39 union tag suit and tie. And, matching items together in color combination popular in a specific era is a rewarding challenge.

 

[Marc Chevalier]

... I much preferred the earlier days when almost everyone was in vintage, as opposed to when it became more widespread and people were less into it.

In L.A., our golden "earlier days" and place were 1996-'98 at the now-defunct Derby nightclub.


.

 

[pdxvintagette]

I want to make it clear that I don't want to get on people's cases for being willing to mix their vintage. It isn't my thing, but one my dearest partners-in-crime does it all the time. She looks cute/funky/original - she just doesn't look authentic on a daily basis. As I've said before, that's great and more power to you if that is what you like.

BUT I hate the justifications for it, the too-often repeated "but people owned older things" argument for a mixed outfit, to state that it is an authentic look when it is patently NOT. (And there are some ways of mixing and matching that I think simply don't work - you still have to approach fashion with good sense and good taste, of course.)

The question broached was how does the great community look at authenticity, and that's all I was really trying to answer from my own point of view.

 

[Lauren]

Makes total sense, Pdxvintage, and I agree! When you have favorite things from different eras it's easy excuse to use, but, like I think LizzieMaine said (forgive me if I got who it was wrong) they would have updated their older look with new modifications. I have several books with chapters on reworking older clothing- one from the late 30s takes a quintessential mid 30s evening dress and gives it a makeover into a late 30s dinner dress. I know I have classics in my closet that are 10+ years old, but they don't really age- like a plain black skirt, white button up shirt, pair of black pumps, etc. I'm sure they had the same thing, but it sounds like you're talking about taking an item that is definitely from one decade and mixing it with the next. It's kind of like us seeing people in late 90s clothing now- sure, there are those people, but most people update something in their wardrobe, even if they keep their favorite purse or shoes from 10 years ago.

Now, if someone is doing it just cause they love the stuff and they're doing their own funky style, that's totally cool- just not "period accurate"

 

[reetpleat]

In L.A., our golden "earlier days" and place were 1996-'98 at the now-defunct Derby nightclub.


.

I remember it well. That is when I was living in SF, 1995-2000 hanging out at the Deluxe, then the Hiball Lounge, and some dancehalls, and a trip to LA was not complete without at least one night at the Derby

 

[LizzieMaine]

Exactly what I was saying -- you certainly wouldn't see someone going around in top-to-toe 1936 style in 1946, but it's not at all unlikely you'd have found someone going around in renovated or "classically styled" items that might go back that far. There's very little difference in style or construction between a typical housewife's lace-up oxford from the mid-thirties compared to one from a decade later, and most people wouldn't even notice. It's this type of everyday-wear item that I'm talking about seeing on the street, not high-style fashion.

Discussions of authenticity always put me to mind of what happened at work when we tried to switch our popcorn topping to real butter: too many people complained that it didn't taste buttery enough. Sometimes we can get so wrapped up in the quest for authenticity that reality itself isn't authentic enough.

 

[Fletch]

You know what I do: watch a lot of old movies, look at a lot of old photographs, and get a feel for what was worn when and how it was worn. The how is at least as important as the what.