Authentic Hair Troubles

[MissTayva]

This has been a fun thread, and it's actually what lead me to the Fedora Lounge in the first place while doing a search for 30s hair!

I'm a stylist too..and I love my job. Too bad more gals don't want the classic do's. I was really hating the spikey updo's the prom gals wanted the past few years.

As some already said, there isn't too much 'authenticity' to the 'authentic' hair cut. When in beauty school you learn a basic layered cut and really all cuts revolve around that cut in some form. And when looking at the 40's Hairstyles book for reference, etc.. you have to keep in mind that whatever inches they prescribe aren't always going to work on your head, for example you might have a longer neck or lower hairline for bangs, etc.

Also, many of the stars of the past had very kinky perms. The rods used then were very small, and roller sets were a must to smooth them out.. another reason their hair teased and stayed SO well. Color was rather new too and many a hair were fried.. and fried hair stays in place without much spray or pins! I remember hearing that models going to hairshows in hopes for awards would bleach their hair on purpose so that they could 'mold' it anyway they wanted. Take Marilyn for exapmle, very bleached hair and in some shots you can see the damage.. but with a fresh roller set it's the most beautiful and shiney tresses ever.

I want to tell you ladies how beautiful you are, I really feel I've been looking at old Hollywood pics! It's been so much fun!

What kind of rollers are you using for your sets? I don't think I have any of my magnetic rollers left from school.. maybe I'll buy a set.

The thing about pin curl perms is that the wave is actually larger closer to the scalp and curlier at the ends. If you perm on modern rods, even the big ones.. you won't get the same look really because the curl is more uniform all the way down. And unless your hair perms well, you can end up with a 'slept in braids' look. I have used the very large black barrel perm rods before, about 1 1/2 inch diameter. My hair was very long and it took pretty wavy, but still rather braid looking. If my hair would've been about shouder length it would've been bouncier and looked something like Vivien Leigh's.

Everyone's hair perms differently, it really sucks. And Kaela, as you mentioned your natural wave being loser on top, most natural wave and perms generally are. I rarely see natural wave even throughout.

Thanks for the tips everyone! I would've never thought to use nylons for rats, I can't wait to make one. I hate the grey things from Sally's! I usually end up using perm coil cotton on my clients!

Ohairas

I had a friend that found a salon that was full of little old ladies who were still doing hair after who knows how long, and got a perm with yellow rods (tiny!). Talk about frizzy! I gotta give it to her, her period styles looked great... but she literally had to style her hair like that constantly or else she looked like a poodle!
I dislike perms, truthfully. The results are never consistent due to a number of factors (porosity, medication, etc). The last body wave I got came out horrible. Some pieces didn't even take, and were near being overprocessed! Then again, I'm the one whose permanent black color washes completely out in 2-3 weeks, even with chelating and everything else!

I still have my magnetic rollers and sometimes use them. I think they provide the smoothest curl! I usually don't have time to set my hair until the kids are asleep, so I usually use those soft foam rollers with a lace cap and sleep in them.

Swinggal----
Here is the waving iron I was referring to (has three barrels)--

http://www.folica.com/Hot_Tools_Profe_d1043.html

I've used this to make wave patterns in a pinch. YOu can also do it with a single barrel Marcel by alternating the direction you place it in the hair and by pulling the hair to the left, to the right w/ each alternation... but that takes more time.

 

[ohairas]

HEY! I had forgotten about the three barrel job.. much better than the crimping type! Ladies be carefull if you have never handled a marcel iron before.. I tell my clients to practice with it unplugged first. You'll be all thumbs getting used to it and have an instinct to grab the end of the barrel when there is no protective tip!

When you speak of chelating, do you mean shampooing with a build up remover? That would definately strip your color, along with any shampoo containing chamomile.. a natural lightener. I'm a strong believer in NOT using permanent color over and over except for roots, it always fades and ruins the porosity. Have you ever used Shades by Redken? It's all I use for hair that has already been colored or for deposity only. It's semi permanent but becomes more perm the more you layer it on. The ultimate in shine and feel. Process under dryer with plastic cap for 15 min, cool for 5. Leave on another 5 or so if blending grey. Here's a chart, you'd probably like the onyx, maybe even mixed with a smidge of orchid, merlot, or blue kicker for fun. Hm.. they used to have a level one violet called eggplant but I don't see it there.
http://www.redkensalon.com/education/learning/pdf/shades_eq.pdf
I use bonfire and I simply can't get the shine with any other line. I use it on my brows too, I don't like pencils.

YIKES! Liquid fabric softener on hair! You'll have to tell them that it's also used for removing wallpaper, then see if they still want to use it on their tresses, lol!

I agree, the magnetics make the smoothest curls. I can't imagine my hair permed on yeller, whew.. I guess if you had pretty fine hair it would really help. Talk about a perm that would last forever, ugh!

For those of you looking for a salon try going to the schools. They should need the practice and since it's just a set they can't hurt you, hehe.. or the instructors might even know of some good salons to reccomend.

Oh.. Big Sexy Hair root pump is awesome too!

O

 

[jitterbugdoll]

Now I have a question regarding hair color! I'm a natural light ash blonde, and my hair was truly platinum until I was about 20. However, as blonde hair ages it gradually darkens, so I began having a weave put in about two years ago in order to regain my original bright blonde locks. Well, the other day I decided that I wanted to try true platinum--ultra light blonde with a violet cast—instead of my usual weave. My stylist was confident that I could achieve the color with ease, given my natural light hair and the fact that is ash blonde, rather than warm toned. So, he did the usual weave, and then applied a violet toner, mixing the toner in with the bleach used for the weave. My hair did not turn platinum, but instead took on a reddish/golden cast that I did not like at all. I stopped by a week later to show him, and he sent me home with the violet toner and had me apply it and leave it in for 10-15 before shampooing it out. This had no effects, so about two weeks later, he tried to cut this reddish cast with an additional weave. However, my hair has remained pretty golden in my opinion (which certainly looks fine, but it’s not what I wanted). So what went wrong? My stylist was very surprised that my hair pulled red, as its natural color is a very cool, light blonde and it has always responded well to a weave.

I still want to try platinum though--what method should I use this time? My hair is very thick with a very fairly coarse texture, and it is extremely porous. Apparently, there is red in my hair, although up until now I never noticed it!

 

[swinggal]

Can I ask what 'magnetic rollers' are? I have hot rollers, are they a special type of hot roller?

The only curl that will hold in my hair is if I wet set it with pincurls all day or at night. My hair is so fine and slides out of curlers so easily.

I also have some special 'waving' clips that I use if I feel like doing finger waves. They are quite large and bizzare and curve around the shape of the head. They slide 'under' the hair against the scalp and clip comes down over the ridge and pulls the hair up and aawy from the head - like a marcel wave clip but a completely different system. When the ridge dries it becomes a finger wave. One set i have are bakelite the other stainless steel.

My dream vintage hairstyle to have is Rita Hayworth's coif. I have red hair too and always part it on the side. I just love the way hers always looked so bouncey and full of waves...even when she was dancing or flicking her head about...sigh.

 

[ohairas]

Sorry so long, maybe TMI??

Ahh.. doncha just love how our hair gets a bit darker every year! Then it goes grey, hehe!

Well, first of all, (this is all my opinion thru my experience), plus not being able to see your hair in person... I would say he didn't leave the foils/weave in long enough to bring you up to a shade to accept a toner. Even tho your natural color lifts more readily than others, I'm willing to bet you are still about a 7, perhaps on the edge of a 6 on a scale of 1-10, 10 being lightest.
Here's a Redken color chart, page 2~
http://www.redkensalon.com/education/learning/pdf/hi-fusion.pdf

Your natural color would still have to go thru a warm/yellow/orangey stage before evently turning blonde. If he didn't leave his product on long enough, (or if the product was not strong enough), you will be left in this stage. Leaving your hair level at about an 8 0r 9 probably. So then, if the toner level he gave you say was a 9 or 10 it will do nothing for you. The toner must be the same level or darker to have a deep enough violet base to counteract the warmth. And if you were left at a 9 or so, it will never be platinum! It must be brought up to almost white.

When you went back he should've foiled you extremely heavy, as it's going to be hard to weave the same pieces he wove before. So you're still going to be left with a few golden strands.

Be sure you are ready for the platinum responsiblity.. esp. if your hair is fine already. With teasing and everything your hair will be much more fragile and you could experience breakage. Your roots are also going to be much more noticable and need high maintenence.

If you still want to try and achieve this look, it will take some time to get the gold out that you already have.. the gold he just did, plus the pretty slight golden tinge you had in your pinup pics.. a lovely blonde!

To get this and judging from what you have told me, I would use a product called Shades Above (ash!) by Redken. I'd apply that to anything that was already blond and leave on about 10-20 minutes. (You could also try a bleach soap cap but I love shades above!) Then I'd foil it again, getting it as close to white as possible, using a bleach with toner and applying it to the natural hair and/or brassy peices only. Then I would use regular Redken shades as a toner, Platinum Ice. Perhaps mixed with a bit of clear shades depending on your porosity. If you are brought up to white on the other hand, it will be very dry and too porus to accept a toner.

You would probably want to try a shampoo with violet to keep the platinum look. If you ever decide you want to go platinum all over, you will have to use scalp bleach and then tone.. no way getting around it unfortunately.. no matter what the high lift blonde tubes say on their packages!

I hope this has been of some help. If you are not unsure about what you want in the future, I might suggest a double weave. One foil with the blonde you used to get and one foil with a much lighter blonde, (not necassarily platinum). Having both colors throughout is a very pretty and natural look.

Ohairas

 

[jitterbugdoll]

Thanks for the reply! Your information was very helpful.

I know--after years of having stylist tell me that my hair would probably never darken up (it remained platinum far longer than most), I was so disappointed when it finally did! Especially considering that I had finally decided that I liked it (being a very pale blonde with even paler skin in Arizona generated a lot of rude/negative comments from those my own age.) But, from my understanding, red hair becomes light/blonder with age—and I think that would be traumatic, too. At least gray hair is easy to hide in blonde hair!

Anyway, I’m lucky because my hair is extremely thick/coarse in general, which is very unusual for a natural blonde. With all the bleaching and the heavy heat styling I do, you’d think my hair would be a frizzy mess. Yet, my stylists only see minimal damage at the ends—guess I’m lucky in that regard!

The pinup photos show my most recent color. It used to have a whiter cast to it…I’d say that if I left it alone, it would be between an 8n-9n on the color chart you posted. Most definitely not as dark as a 7 or a 6, and I really don’t notice root growth (well, I can see it, but I can get away with out a touch up for several months). In fact, my hairstylist always points out that my hair is lighter then I think it is.

He does have me using the violet shampoo (Clairol Shimmerlights) which tones down the gold. I will have to bring in your notes to show him—he does a good job on a regular weave, and I know he does a lot of golden/honey blondes. I think he simply doesn’t get a lot of requests for platinum…And the double weave sounds like a good ‘middle’ step which will let me ease into an official platinum…

 

[ohairas]

Swinggal I apologize, I missed your post while I must having typing my other reply earlier.

Magnetic rollers are just the plastic ones with holes in them. I don't know why they're called that, lol! If you have trouble with rollers they would probably slide out or be to heavy for you. Have you tried velcro rollers? Of course if you've got the pin curls down why bother with them!

I've got some finger wave clips around her too, I'm going to have to dig them out. Before I got pregnant my hair was almost to my waist and I never set it or anything. Now it's barely to my shoulders so I can have some fun with it!

To be honest I'm not too hip on what Rita's hair really looks like, I'll do a search!

Jitterbugdoll, I hope the info was useful! If you're lighter than a 7 naturally you might ask your stylist to do a few sample foils in the back when you get more regrowth, using a highlift double blond series color. You just *might* get the results you want. But in my experience, even tho the blonde looks very pretty and clear to me, my clients always feel it is still to warm for them. If it takes well however, it would wonderful for you to use all over!

Best wishes, and I hope your stylist doesn't take offense from my notes.... because I don't know your hair or exactly what he did anyway!
The rental salon I used to work at had over 50 stylists. I was there for 8 years and they kept raising the rent, so I moved to a great salon with only about 16 girls and have been there for 4. There's just nothing like hands on experience and the knowledge of other professional stylists. I still learn some little trick every day and hope that I can share the ones I know as well!

O

 

[swinggal]

Love Ritas hair

 

[MissTayva]

When you speak of chelating, do you mean shampooing with a build up remover? That would definately strip your color, along with any shampoo containing chamomile.. a natural lightener. I'm a strong believer in NOT using permanent color over and over except for roots, it always fades and ruins the porosity. Have you ever used Shades by Redken? It's all I use for hair that has already been colored or for deposity only. It's semi permanent but becomes more perm the more you layer it on. The ultimate in shine and feel. Process under dryer with plastic cap for 15 min, cool for 5. Leave on another 5 or so if blending grey. Here's a chart, you'd probably like the onyx, maybe even mixed with a smidge of orchid, merlot, or blue kicker for fun. Hm.. they used to have a level one violet called eggplant but I don't see it there.
http://www.redkensalon.com/education/learning/pdf/shades_eq.pdf
I use bonfire and I simply can't get the shine with any other line. I use it on my brows too, I don't like pencils.


Oh.. Big Sexy Hair root pump is awesome too!

O

When I color my hair, I chelate prior to coloring, then I use a blue filler, then I color. If I don't do that, the color will rinse right out! I know it's not due to overprocessed hair, things just changed after I had children. I use 10 vol. peroxide, or lower, if I can find it! Sometimes I follow up with an application of Jazzing in the same shade, that helps prolong it, as well.
I am actually thinking of trying Shades EQ. I used it plenty in beauty school, but never put it on my own hair (I never trusted any of the other girls!) In fact, I was amazed at how well it covers grey hair! You know how porous that is... so I am thinking there may be hope for me!

 

[MissTayva]

Ohairas-- good advice on the color situation!
I have to agree. Judging from your photos, Jitterbugdoll, it seems that your stylist simply didn't leave it on long enough. I would have guessed that you are about a level 8, almost 9... so getting to a 10-11 shouldn't be that hard!

Surprisingly, I was able to get my level 4 hair up to a level 9-10 platinum with only 40 vol. peroxide and a bottle of color (in normal processing time!). I never had a problem lifting up past the red/orange stage. I think it was partly due to a product I used... You can get it at Sally Beauty Supply, it's called "No-Red" and comes in a little white box. I can't think of who makes it off-hand. You put a few drops in your color bottle or bowl and it eliminates the need for a toner. It does make the mixture purplish, so don't freak if you happen to use it!

What did your stylist use, anyway, color or bleach?
I also used to use (on clients) an oil-based bleach that had a blue tint, which helped neutralize the brassy tones. It wasn't as harsh as the other bleach.

Another thing I was going to point out... as far as leaving it on longer, you can safely lift hair (without severly overprocessing it) to a pale yellow color. Any lighter than that (white!), and you've sacrificed the integrity of the hair. That's when the breakage and not-fun stuff comes in. Not to mention, hair will usually lighten through shampooing and such! I am glad to hear that you are using Shimmerlights, that stuff works great!

If you still find your hair brassy, go back and ask to have a shampoo cap. Basically, they mix shampoo with peroxide, which can lighten the hair additionally.

Swinggal-- thanks for sharing those Rita photos! I am so jealous of her style. I can never get mine to look like that. Then again, I'm sure she wasn't the one styling her hair. It helps to have someone else do it for you!

 

[Geraldine]

Though I love all the 40s and 50s styles, I stick with my 20s Louise Brooks bob. It's effortless and I can get away wearing anything vintage or modern with it.

 

[ohairas]

See! You learn something everyday.. thanks Miss Tayva, I'll have to check out the redout!!

Geraldine your bob looks awesome~

Ohairas

 

[Angelicious]

Hi everyone... I'm very new here. Thought I'd just jump on in...

I am lucky enough to have my backcombing technique down, I don't usually rely on rats. Just plenty of backcombing and styling product!

Well, I can get nice big rolls without either rats or backcombing... Maybe I just have a lot of hair?

Come to think of it, I can get (I don't know correct terms) big back-sweeping side rolls with no rats, no backcombing, no product, and about 4 or 5 large bobby pins per roll. It's not wonderfully tidy, accourse... (But I think that's just my lack of skill in general.) I don't think they'd stay in place for dancing without product though.

Is it just that easy, or am I doing something wrong?

What do you ladies use as far as styling products go?
I find that I can't really use setting lotion anymore, [...]

I don't use any, as a general rule... If I'm going out, I use Kérastase Lumiere Nutri-Sculpt to get rid of fuzz and flyaway. It only gives a moderate shine, and no hold.

I'm lucky that my hair takes curl well, so I can generally just wet-set it with a dab of mousse and it will hold for a few hours. (I can't pin curl yet... Thanks everyone for the info on here though!) I would love to find a product that would give some hold & shine without leaving my hair "crunchy" or solid. The suggestions here sound good, but I don't recognise most of the brand-names. Maybe they aren't sold here in New Zealand...

You ladies into hair flowers-- do you buy them or make them?

I'd love to wear them, but can't find any. You can buy plenty as brooches here at the moment (although most look quite cheap), so I might try converting one. Can anyone tell me if they should be on combs, slide pins, or a barrette type deal?

I'm so glad to be on this list... All that info I could never find before...

 

[BixChix26]

hair

I have a basic bob now without bangs. In the humidity it just naturally goes curly and I was tired of fighting it, so all I do is wash, condition and throw in some gel.

Any drugstore sells big alligator clips that I believe can be used to recreate a Marcel wave, altho from what I understand, the big secret to this is the setting lotion.

Anybody have any sage advice on a good setting lotion to use to recreate a true '20s Marcel wave?

PS -- when I was a kid, my mother used to set my hair in rag curls -- literally, strips of rag bound up for that ringlet effect!

 

[MissTayva]

BixChix26---
Hi there!
I'm a bit confused what you mean by "Marcel wave", but I am betting you're talking about traditional wet fingerwaving...
A Marcel wave is called just that because it is created by using a Marcel waving iron, on dry hair:
http://www.hotcurlingirons.com/marc...ournal.com/community/vintage_hair/577506.html

The modern irons look drastically different than that (and thankfully they are fully electric!), but if you look closely at the diagram, you can see the manner in which the hair is waved. That is the fastest and easiest way to do it...

However, if you'd like to attempt traditional wet-set fingerwaving, I suggest any cheapie brand of concentrated setting lotion. You can find it at any beauty supply store (usually in the ethnic section). You usually have to dilute it down with water (I like to make mine just a bit stronger than the directions indicate). Seriously, stay away from the setting lotions from the more well known brands (like Wella)... on me, they either make my hair dull, tangle or the product flakes off my hair.

You know, I haven't thought of using the larger, modern day clips to try waving. I dislike the vintage waving clips, as they are too strong and seem to leave a kink in the hair, rather than a uniform wave. I will have to try that-- thanks for the suggestion!

 

[BixChix26]

thanks for the tip about setting lotion! Will try it soon.

 

[ITG]

What I do with the setting lotion is mix it in a spray bottle with water and then spray it on...it's really easy to apply that way.

 

[decodoll]

The friend that I mentioned earlier in this thread who makes really beautiful hair flowers has just launched her website (The Diva Pinup .) Take a look if you're interested. She has recently started making flowered snoods and burlesque hair pieces as well. They are all really gorgeous, and she has wonderful prices as well! She's having a Pin-up contest as well to kick off her website!

 

[16_sparrows]

Swinggal----
Here is the waving iron I was referring to (has three barrels)--

http://www.folica.com/Hot_Tools_Profe_d1043.html

I've used this to make wave patterns in a pinch. YOu can also do it with a single barrel Marcel by alternating the direction you place it in the hair and by pulling the hair to the left, to the right w/ each alternation... but that takes more time.

MissTayva, What kind of wave can you achive with the triple barrel iron? I'm imagining that it could make something like this:

Or am I being too optimistic?

 

[MJCalloway]

front rolls

Could anyone help with any instructions on how to do a front roll with your hair? I can do the side without a problem, but it seems that I become all thumbs when trying to do the "under" front roll.

Any help would be most appreciated!