Attorneys and Barristers of the Lounge

[Ephraim Tutt]

It is a tough way to make a living. It is no road to guaranteed success that's for certain. I would first think of the skill sets you have and what you enjoy doing. In reality there are many things one can do with a law degree besides practice law, but law school is far less flexible than MBA's and such as it requires class, either full time of part time at night. It is a tough way no doubt. The first semester especially, the first year pretty tough. If you make it through the first year, it isn't so bad. However it is a lot, lot of money, student loans every month remind me of that.

Many people get law degrees with big money in their eyes and find out later they hate it, some just didn't practice the right thing, some just hate it in general. There are enough attorneys in my house, I'd rather shoot guns. I'm a recovering lobbyist, yes my name is Warbird and I am a lobbyist. I need a sponsor. I guess if I were to ever practice law, I would have to consider patents with an aerospace degree and as a former pilot, that besides government relations which may or may not be practicing law, would be my natural fit.

If you have some natural link between what or who you know and what you could do that is the best scenario.

Some wise counsel there Warbird. Welcome to the Lawyers in Lids Room. Some shiraz?

 

[tortswon]

Excess? Did someone say excess?

Tutt, one of the nice things about being the Director for the Study of Food and Wine at a large urban university is that I don't always have to pay for the Grange Hermitage. Truly, life is good.

There is a wine down there called Two Hands. A friend of mine was the original importer into the US and he used to get cases delivered for demo of which many bottles found their way into my cellar. If you are unfamiliar with their wines, you should become so at once!

As far as Nicole Kidman is concerned, I'm going to have to quote Leonard Cohen, who turned 75 yesterday, that, "I ache in places where I used to have fun."

Now for excess...The last time I had the Roaring Forties I took a double boiler and melted foie gras in it. I poured the melted foie gras over the cheese. Had a bottle of 1973 Chateau d'Yquem with it with Mrs. Tortswon for our 29th wedding anniversary. The 30th is October 7 and she is already asking how I'm going to top it. Oh, the pressure! Best, Sam

 

[tortswon]

Counterpoint

Babs, I think it is a wonderful idea for you to go to law school. I started out in pharmacology and taught molecular biology and genetics at one of our local medical schools. Doing laboratory research was not for me and after spending years in that profession I decided to go to law school. It was the second best thing I did in my life (the first was marrying the right woman the first time), and I have never regretted being a lawyer for a moment.

I am a trial lawyer. I try cases in front of juries for a living. I think must here would agree that's one of the more pressure filled aspects of the law. That said, it has been fun, rewarding, intellectually challenging, and fulfilling for me. There is plenty of stress but that gives me an excuse to play hard in my off time.

If you feel the urge to do what we lawyers do, I say do it. I have regrets for things I did and things I didn't do. The regrets are far greater for the things I didn't do than for the things I did. Go for it! Best, Sam

 

[Jabos]

Funny how lawyers take things to excess, perhaps more so than any other professional. Food, wine, women, song, hats, pens, old shotguns, cars; whatever. No sense sticking your toe in the water when you can jump in and completely immures oneself, right? One can go completely around the bend and no one will say a thing or be surprised (except for a spouse).

I thought I'd skip over this thread, figuring I'd rather stay away from any thought of the law. However, after reading Doublegun's comment I will "jump in" here, as long as we can keep the conversation on excesses. My spouse (also a lawyer (met in law school) but one who doesn't explore excesses, fortunately) now understands I roll from one thing to another. It is the escape, isn't it? I came to hats after leather jackets (which led me to the FL), which came after Lugers (boy, there's one that can be as deep as you want to go!), which came after . . .

I do insurance defense, chasing the double billing for all its worth, keeping those adjusters happy. I haven't gotten the itch for a new excess but I'm thinking of exploring single malts, or perhaps fly fishing, but for now I'll just stick with improving my hat collection.

Pretrial Strategy; Planning and Preparation. 1.25

Oh, do we need to cite a case to be inducted? Hadley v. Baxendale

 

[Ephraim Tutt]

I thought I'd skip over this thread, figuring I'd like to stay away from any thought of the law. However, after reading Doublegun's comment I will "jump in" here, as long as we can keep the conversation on excesses. My spouse (also a lawyer (met in law school) but one who doesn't explore excesses, fortunately) now understands I roll from one excess to another. I came to hats after leather jackets (which led me to the FL), which came after Lugers, which came after . . .

I do insurance defense, chasing the double billing for all its worth, keeping those adjusters happy. I haven't gotten the itch for a new excess but I'm thinking of exploring single malts, or perhaps fly fishing, but for now I'll just stick with improving my hat collection.

Pretrial Strategy; Planning and Preparation. 1.25

Just not on the excessive influence of insurance companies on the tort reform movement?

Ok...seeing as you collect Lugers, it's probably safer for me to stick to the excesses you like.

Welcome to the Lawyers in Lids Room Jabos. Fly fishing is the regular habit of my literary namesake, but I've never tried it myself. Being Scottish by birth and born in the shadow of the old Haig distillary I should have a taste for single malt, but I never developed one. My tipple of choice will always be a decent Aussie wine - or New Zealand wine, French wine, German wine, British...oops they don't do any, American wine (which I have yet to try). I'm sure brother Tortswon could direct me to the best ones.

Now how about some pics of those hats and jackets you mentioned?

 

[Doublegun]

Fly fishing, left that one off my list of excesses and probably shoudn't have. Being lawyers I imagine many of you have read (or seen) Anatomy of a Murder, written by Robert Traver. If so then you probably know that Robert Traver (John Voelker) was a justice on the Michigan Supreme Court. This is what Justice Voelker had to say about fly-fishing:

I fish because I love to; because I love the environs where trout are found, which are invariably beautiful, and hate the environs where crowds of people are found, which are invariably ugly; because of all the television commercials, cocktail parties, and assorted social posturing I thus escape; because, in a world where most men seem to spend their lives doing things they hate, my fishing is at once an endless source of delight and an act of small rebellion; because trout do not lie or cheat and cannot be bought or bribed or impressed by power, but respond only to quietude and humility and endless patience; because I suspect that men are going along this way for the last time, and I for one don't want to waste the trip; because mercifully there are no telephones on trout waters; because only in the woods can I find solitude without loneliness; because bourbon out of an old tin cup always tastes better out there; because maybe one day I will catch a mermaid; and, finally, not because I regard fishing as being so terribly important but because I suspect that so many of the other concerns of men are equally unimportant - and not nearly so much fun.
-John Voelker (Robert Traver )

For those of you who have not seen the movie or read the book I encourage you to find a copy and a comfortable chair and enjoy. (There are some great old hats in the movie as well as some memorable lines).

As for me, I swore off fly rods made of graphite 3-4 years ago when I cast my first bamboo rod. I just love the look and feel of a cane rod. I'll head north in a couple of weeks for several days of grouse hunting and fly fishing for brook trout, taking with me my English setters and a couple of books. This I look forward to all year.

 

[BinkieBaumont]

"I was dragged up,in-front of the "Beek" once he didn't wear a hat he just looked like a very ugly Bronte sister with tragic (Nylon) Ringlets"

 

[Lefty]

This thread has nothing to do with hats.

 

[warbird]

Fly fishing, left that one off my list of excesses and probably shoudn't have. Being lawyers I imagine many of you have read (or seen) Anatomy of a Murder, written by Robert Traver. If so then you probably know that Robert Traver (John Voelker) was a justice on the Michigan Supreme Court. This is what Justice Voelker had to say about fly-fishing:

I fish because I love to; because I love the environs where trout are found, which are invariably beautiful, and hate the environs where crowds of people are found, which are invariably ugly; because of all the television commercials, cocktail parties, and assorted social posturing I thus escape; because, in a world where most men seem to spend their lives doing things they hate, my fishing is at once an endless source of delight and an act of small rebellion; because trout do not lie or cheat and cannot be bought or bribed or impressed by power, but respond only to quietude and humility and endless patience; because I suspect that men are going along this way for the last time, and I for one don't want to waste the trip; because mercifully there are no telephones on trout waters; because only in the woods can I find solitude without loneliness; because bourbon out of an old tin cup always tastes better out there; because maybe one day I will catch a mermaid; and, finally, not because I regard fishing as being so terribly important but because I suspect that so many of the other concerns of men are equally unimportant - and not nearly so much fun.
-John Voelker (Robert Traver )

For those of you who have not seen the movie or read the book I encourage you to find a copy and a comfortable chair and enjoy. (There are some great old hats in the movie as well as some memorable lines).

As for me, I swore off fly rods made of graphite 3-4 years ago when I cast my first bamboo rod. I just love the look and feel of a cane rod. I'll head north in a couple of weeks for several days of grouse hunting and fly fishing for brook trout, taking with me my English setters and a couple of books. This I look forward to all year.

:eusa_clap I will agree with the eccentricities and excessive tendency nature of lawyers, most especially rural lawyers.

DG I shall be with you in spirit on your grouse adventure. I will be in Michigan the second week of October for some of the finest grouse hunting in America. I love it there in the fall, staying in a cabin, traversing the woods. There is nothing I have found in this world which connects us more with our ancestors, recent and far far back, than a man and his dog and a shotgun.

Or a rifle on some other adventure. We continue to do as we have done for thousands of years.

 

[warbird]

At times I do attend court with my wife when she is in our local courthouse. I have noticed when I do go I always reach for my OR style hats. Every once in a while I will don a whippet, but the OR style just seems to fit more naturally at least here in this part of the country.

Just down from the courthouse is a little watering hole where I always go smoke a cigar and have a nice beer. In the late afternoon it is mostly local attorneys. I have become known as the hat guy, and I have converted several locals to the hat because they see a man wearing a nice suit and a hat and realize how stylish it is. Not to mention it brings attention and a touch of class. It is funny that they do notice, most people do not, when I have a different hat on. They like to know about the hats as well, what kind it is, how old it is, what it is made of. And if I don't wear a hat they are always disappointed.

Attorneys always are trying to one up other attorneys, especially if it attracts people's (read potential clients) attention. My wife once got a client specifically because this older gentleman, a hat wearer himself, liked the fact that she would marry a man who wore a hat with a suit.

 

[Spats McGee]

There was a question earlier about whether we go for vintage stuff because we're lawyers, or whether we're lawyers because we go for vintage stuff. That's not exactly how it was phrased, but I hope that I'm close enough. I don't know the answer to that, but my observation is this: A big part of law school is learning about cases long since decided, and judges long since dead. Walk into any courthouse and you'll find pictures and statues of lawyers who passed away generations ago. Overall, we're in a profession that is slow to change. For those of us in common law jurisdictions, the common law evolves, but only by very small increments. I didn't graduate law school until 2002, but I clerked for several lawyers who still wrote out briefs by hand, then let their secretaries (or me) type them in. I don't think it's any wonder that this aversion to rapid change spills over into other aspects of our lives. Just my two cents.

On excesses -- First of all, I think the practice of law is full of obsessive-compulsives. I'm one of them. The old saying is that "the devil is in the details," and it is. It's not enough just to read a deposition. You have to read the deposition until you have every significant statement memorized, along with its location and page number. Every document, every diagram, every photograph has to be studied, copied, noted, and outlined to an almost ridiculous degree, at least to the outside world. Because when Trial Day comes, you just don't know exactly which statement, which clause, or which fact you might need to prove your client's position. The result is that we tend not to do anything by halves. The second reason, IMO, is escape. The practice of law is generally a high-stress, long-hours kind of gig. So when we find something that lets us get away from it for a bit, we tend to immerse ourselves in it wholeheartedly.

There were two events in law school that illustrated to me just how different law school is from college. First was the day I got the letter that told me that I had assignments due on the first day of class. Not to be assigned the first day. Due. The second was my first "paper class," where I had to write a paper, rather than take a final exam. There was a maximum page limit. As an undergrad, there had always been minimum page limits, because somebody in class was likely to write a 3-sentence essay and turn that in. On the other hand, in law school, without the maximum page limit, somebody was going to turn in "My Essay, Volumes I through VII."

Here's a chuckle for ya. Would it be absolutely silly for a 41 yr old with two little ones (five and three), to consider the unfathomable idea of blasting the LSAT out of the water and committing an absolute career about face and going to law school?

I'm having a mid-career rethink. MBA possibly, Law possibly. I have the wisdom of 41 years except I also have the typical constraints of 41 years and a family. But I'm at a fork in the road, in my mind. Engineering isn't going to get me where I wanna go.

Figured I'd ask a captive audience.

Babs, the first question I'd ask is this: What will you do with a JD? With a background in engineering, you might be able to do patent law, but I'm not sure. There are particular requirements for patent lawyers, I think. Depending on your particular field of engineering, you might also be able to do something related to that field.

I will also tell you that I had a first year classmate who was 75 years old and had died twice on the operating table. Now that was a lady with some guts! Unfortunately, the stress of law school proved too much for her and she never finished, at least as far as I know. I guess she might have returned after I graduated, but I doubt it.

I didn't start law school until I was about 30, but I didn't have children, either. I may be in the minority, but I had a great time in law school. With that said, I'll tell you that it takes up a lot of time.

As for the work itself, well, I consider myself one of the lucky people in the world. I think that life is too short to spend it in jobs that you hate, & I love my job. But I think that, by and large, the practice of law is too much work to keep doing it if you don't love it.

 

[jimmy the lid]

This thread has nothing to do with hats.

Perhaps it should be moved to the Observation Bar and re-titled "The Observation Bar Association"...

Cheers,
JtL

 

[Spats McGee]

This thread is entitled "Lawyers in Lids," so without further ado:

​

 

[duggap]

Are you sure we shouldn't swear you in first?

 

[Doublegun]

Perhaps it should be moved to the Observation Bar and re-titled "The Observation Bar Association"...

Now that's funny.

Any chance Hadley H is a lawyer?

 

[AR Banjo]

Another lawyer...

I'm a deputy prosecutor in northeast Arkansas; handle drug cases exclusively.

Like others here, law wasn't my first career. I spent time in the army before law school. Still in the National Guard.

Favorite pens--wartime Vacumatics and Skylines.

Spats, where you trying to get on as a DPA?

I actually think this is my first post.....

 

[Jabos]

Now how about some pics of those hats and jackets you mentioned?

Here you go, my new to me 1930s Mossant picked up off Ebay from Marc Chevalier. I love this hat! Fits perfectly. Wearing it with my Eastman A-2 and one of my favorite books-totally staged of course! I do like to wear the hat in the house, however, even though my wife makes fun of me for doing so.

 

[memphislawyer]

AR Banjo, Blytheville or Osceola? I have relatives there. PM me and we can discuss this if so.

 

[Spats McGee]

I'm a deputy prosecutor in northeast Arkansas; handle drug cases exclusively.

Welcome to the Lounge, AR Banjo! I was in Craighead County Circuit Court yesterday. I guess I just missed you by, oh, probably not more than 100 miles or so.

. . . .
Spats, where you trying to get on as a DPA? . . . .

Mountain Home, in Baxter County.

 

[AR Banjo]

Spats...

Lot less than 100 miles!

I can't PM yet--send me a PM if you would.