Attaching Morale Patches On Leather Flight Jackets

[SteveZ]

YOU BETCHA JIM ! POP was the CO from September 66 to September 67. He was relieved by CDR. Bob Wagner and the squadron was axed by mid 68 by the Johnson administration in mid year by ( Robert Mac Namarra ) I think as a defense spending cut. However, Cdr Wagner went on to command NAS GUAM.

Since my dad was CO of the squadron at ROOSEY ROADS PR, it was kinda strange seeing segregated seating in the base theater. Officers in the first 10 rows and all enlisted to the rear. Never had seen that before in the 'old Navy ' days. I guess they dont do that anymore I think. ( LOL or do they ??? )

 

[SteveZ]

Well, I just got the last custom patch back and it looks great. ( Pink Panther ) Im pretty clear as to where all the patches will be placed on the coat. Im certain that sewing all these patches on the jacket ( 20 ) is gonna set me back a few bucks with a local leather tailor. ( Im guessing a couple hundred at least ) I found one locally that is very good and does alot of club patches for some of the bikers in the area.

Im wondering as to how to get the tailor to see how I want all the patches placed. My wife suggested placing the flight jacket on a table and simply placing the patches in the positions I want them and take a picture with a digital camera for a reference that the tailor needs.

I was thinking of perhaps using a very thin double sided tape and temporarily placing each patch myself. Then all the tailor had to do was permanently stitch on each patch already pre-positioned.

I was also thinking of some kind of spray or a brushed on cement compatible with leather and cloth that could be applied to each patches back side and then placed in position on the jacket. Once the glue cures it wont get loose or shift around until the tailor dos the final sewing operation. Perhaps an automotive trim adhesive ? Just dont need it to bleed through the patch or stain it. ( Thats why I thought the double sided tape was best )

Any suggestions fellahs ? Never had to do this before but if I get all the patches pre placed on the coat, the job will be easier to do the final sewing. The jacket tailor might cut me a little slack on the bill.

Any thoughts or suggestions from previous experience ?

 

[HoosierDaddy]

You'd be better off just using a piece of chalk to outline where you want the patch rather than gluing anything to leather. In the past several members have removed patches from used repros only to find glue behind them, used by the previous owner, taking the finish off of the hide and leaving unrepairable.
HD

 

[SteveZ]

Thats an idea to consider. Dont tailors use a marking crayon that looks like a wax ?

 

[HoosierDaddy]

I don't really know. However, chalk outlines would easily be removed from leather with a damp cloth after patches are sewn. I don't know how effortless something else might be in removing from leather (I'd be very cautious). If you had the patches outlined on the jacket where you want them placed (correct locations, of course) with something that can later be washed off around the edges, getting them sewn correctly should be simple as well as cleanup.
HD

 

[SteveZ]

Well HD, my thought was that even if I taped or lightly glued the patches on to pre position them all at once, Im not concerned about what happens to the leather underneath. Theres no plan in the future to remove them and the patches will remain on the coat forever. Besides, even if I removed all the patches for some unknown future reason, theres gonna be a ton of stitching holes in the jacket. This is why I didnt want to spend a ton of money on a goatskin G1 because I knew what I would be using it for. ( I bought a US WINGS jacket for just under 300 bucks ) I simply refused however to use a cheap imported knock off coat made of fake leather for this project. I didnt feel comfortable custom making a slick jacket to salute my dads Navy flying days in a jacket with ' Made In China ' on the inside tag. It simply didnt feel right if you get my meaning.

 

[Steve S.]

get some tailors chalk. It's available anywhere that has a sewing section. regular chalk is fine, but I find that when using regular chalk, if I mark more than a couple steps ahead, its usually gone when i get to that part.

http://www.joann.com/dritz-tailor-chalk-refill-white/1049832.html

 

[CBI]

IMO, the best way to have your patches put on in just the right spot is to place them where you want them and take a photo and give the tailor a print out. Additionally, measure how far you want the patches from seams, pockets, etc and write those ON the print out. If the patch is circular and has a design that the tailor might not place vertically just correctly, I take a pic of the patch and draw horizontal and vertical lines on the picture so he/she knows exactly how to place it.

 

[SteveZ]

CBI, that was mentioned earlier in this thread using a camera.

However, the patches are of different sizes and shapes and it might be difficult for a tailor to estimate measurements exactly by using a picture. I'll talk to the tailor about this and see what he thinks.

Ive used a unique tape before on another project called U-GLU. Its like a double adhesive sided latex strip and its very thin. I can carefully place each patch and cut strips of the tape and attach it to the reverse side of each patch. I can still separate the patch to adjust the placement and so forth. When the entire jackets done with the patches all pre positioned, the tailor can do the final stitches without disturbing the patch positions. The tape can stay put permanently because its so thin that youll never know its there. This could be the best method to use thus far. The tailor might like this idea also because the patches will stay put while the sewing operation is under way.

Heres the tape Im talking about below in different forms.

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[SteveZ]

Another Update;

Decided to add one more detail to the Pink Panther ' nose art ' patch. There was enough room on the patch to add one more little detail. I took the patch to a local embroidery shop and had two letters added just to the right of the panther character. ' C O ' was custom embroidered in bright silver thread. ( turned out perfect too )

Gettin ready to start my temporary patch placement on the jacket so the leather tailor can simply finish the last sewing step.

Lady tailor said about 4 bucks each for the small patches and up to 10 for the large squadron patch on the back of the coat. I'll have a little over a hundred in this sewing operation but this lady ( from Thailand ) has been doing this for years for the local military and has an excellent reputation.

Another question. American flag placement. Left shoulder or right shoulder ? I was told once that a ' command ' patch always goes on the left shoulder. One patch is a ' NAVAL AIR FORCES ATLANTIC ' thats going on the coat. Should that one be sewn on the left shoulder and the American flag sewn on the opposite side ? Or is the placement reversed ?

Cant find any specific material on this. Any body know to advise me ? Most coats and flight suits Ive seen has the flag on the left shoulder. Just want to get it correct the first time. THANKS FELLAHS !!

 

[Deacon211]

There is very little standard (of the official kind) once you move beyond the nametag and squadron patch. That being said, in twenty years, I have never seen an American flag anywhere but on the left shoulder of a naval flight jacket. The army tends to move their division patches around, putting a US flag on the opposite side, but not so much the navy.

There is by no means any requirement to wear the US flag. I'd say maybe only one or two guys in ten had the flag on their leather jackets and most of those put them on as Ensigns when they didn't have a lot of other patches to mount. Still, I always thought the flag looked good on a G-1...you just need to accept the loss of real estate if you do however.

On that point, there are generally two sizes of flag patch. The smaller has a gold border, the larger white. Personally, the smaller one always looked a little puny on a G-1, but to each his own. Just know that you have a choice.

Deacon

 

[Treetopflyer]

On that point, there are generally two sizes of flag patch. The smaller has a gold border, the larger white. Personally, the smaller one always looked a little puny on a G-1, but to each his own. Just know that you have a choice.

Deacon

Typically Officers have the gold border and Enlisted have the white. Also not an "official rule."

I have never seen a flag sewn on the right sleeve of a flight jacket, they have always been on the left.

 

[Deacon211]

Typically Officers have the gold border and Enlisted have the white. Also not an "official rule."

I have never seen a flag sewn on the right sleeve of a flight jacket, they have always been on the left.

Interesting! I generally saw the smaller flags on flight suits and the bigger white bordered flags sometimes on jacket sleeves. I had never heard the officer/enlisted angle, but the Marines tended to wear them less than the Navy guys I knew.

 

[SteveZ]

Thanks guys ! I'll stick with the flag on the left shoulder then. BTW, I did get the American flag with the white border. I have never heard heard of officers and enlisted having two separate versions of the flag. My old Air Force nylon flight jacket had the flag with a gold border on the left side.

Just out of interest, can the flag be sewn on elsewhere on a G1 ? Or is the flag sewn on the shoulder or nothing at all ? Im searching around for G1 jacket pics for patch placement ideas on the web.

Another note of interest; My dad started in the ' enlisted ' V2 flight program in 1946 ( called a Mustanger ? ) and over the years my pop never talked about it much until long after his retirement. I learned later that V2 officers were often frowned upon by the ' academy ' types and my dad thought that many times he was passed up for some important assignments that would have meant quicker promotions for him because he started as enlisted. And Ive heard this from more than one or two sources over the years.

In the old NAVY days long past, was this true ? I had located a NAVY V2 PROGRAM patch for a place of honor on the coat but then I had second thoughts about it.

Wasnt there a US NAVY CNO once that was a V2 MUSTANGER ? Hell, I thought moving up the officer ranks from an enlisted man was a real accomplishment. I always admired my pop for that. Whats the real story here ?

 

[Deacon211]

Thanks guys ! I'll stick with the flag on the left shoulder then. BTW, I did get the American flag with the white border. I have never heard heard of officers and enlisted having two separate versions of the flag. My old Air Force nylon flight jacket had the flag with a gold border on the left side.

Just out of interest, can the flag be sewn on elsewhere on a G1 ? Or is the flag sewn on the shoulder or nothing at all ? Im searching around for G1 jacket pics for patch placement ideas on the web.

I've never seen it placed anywhere else and, as I said, even on the shoulder only occasionally. I tend to think anywhere else would look funny. But I'm sure someone at some time added a flag to their jacket after they already had a patch on both shoulders and so placed it somewhere else.

But, as I said earlier in the thread, you can easily cross that weird line between believable flight jacket and weird Top Gun caricature, especially with a new jacket and all new patches. So, you may not want to stray too far afield. Of course, it's your jacket. So if it works for you, that's all that matters.

 

[SteveZ]

Thanks Deacon,

All the patches are valid in relationship to my dads career. Dont worry ! This is not gonna look like a Tom Cruise Hollywood jacket that some costume department slapped together. I just wanted to get the patch placement reasonably correct when it came to the American flag and a command patch. Didnt want another ' old timer pilot ' remarking that I placed something on incorrectly.

In all honesty, there are a few extra patches that my dad never had on his coat either. This coat is a tribute to my pop who flew submarine hunter aircraft for years and is a salute to all others who did also. A few of the jackets patches pay tribute to the Lockheed Neptune Aircraft IE; Lockheed Aircraft, Wright Aircraft Engines, Westinghouse Gas Turbine Division and Hamilton Standard Propellers .

Its going to look awesome. I'll get some pics of the completed project to post when im done.

 

[Treetopflyer]

Thanks guys ! I'll stick with the flag on the left shoulder then. BTW, I did get the American flag with the white border. I have never heard heard of officers and enlisted having two separate versions of the flag. My old Air Force nylon flight jacket had the flag with a gold border on the left side.

Just out of interest, can the flag be sewn on elsewhere on a G1 ? Or is the flag sewn on the shoulder or nothing at all ? Im searching around for G1 jacket pics for patch placement ideas on the web.

Another note of interest; My dad started in the ' enlisted ' V2 flight program in 1946 ( called a Mustanger ? ) and over the years my pop never talked about it much until long after his retirement. I learned later that V2 officers were often frowned upon by the ' academy ' types and my dad thought that many times he was passed up for some important assignments that would have meant quicker promotions for him because he started as enlisted. And Ive heard this from more than one or two sources over the years.

In the old NAVY days long past, was this true ? I had located a NAVY V2 PROGRAM patch for a place of honor on the coat but then I had second thoughts about it.

Wasnt there a US NAVY CNO once that was a V2 MUSTANGER ? Hell, I thought moving up the officer ranks from an enlisted man was a real accomplishment. I always admired my pop for that. Whats the real story here ?

"Back in the day," way before my time, anyone that was not an Academy grad never made Admiral. So, I have no doubt that he was not given certain opportunities because he was not an Academy guy. It was really an "old boys" network.

Typically, someone doesn't "move up through the ranks," like you would think. They may make it to E-5 and get an opportunity to go to a commissioning source, i.e. OCS, ROTC or the Academy. They don't necessarily work through all of the enlisted ranks to make it to O-1. I have several friends that applied to different officer programs while they were E-4s and were accepted. When I went through OCS I had an E-7 in my class. Typically if you make it to the E-7 to E-9 ranks then they go for the Warrant Officer program. Unlike the Army, the Navy doesn't have a direct to Warrant program.

You are correct, there was a CNO that was prior enlisted, Admiral Borda. He is famous for bringing the Seaman to Admiral program back. That program is what gave my friends the opportunity to become officers.

 

[Deacon211]

Thanks Deacon,

All the patches are valid in relationship to my dads career. Dont worry ! This is not gonna look like a Tom Cruise Hollywood jacket that some costume department slapped together. I just wanted to get the patch placement reasonably correct when it came to the American flag and a command patch. Didnt want another ' old timer pilot ' remarking that I placed something on incorrectly.

In all honesty, there are a few extra patches that my dad never had on his coat either. This coat is a tribute to my pop who flew submarine hunter aircraft for years and is a salute to all others who did also. A few of the jackets patches pay tribute to the Lockheed Neptune Aircraft IE; Lockheed Aircraft, Wright Aircraft Engines, Westinghouse Gas Turbine Division and Hamilton Standard Propellers .

Its going to look awesome. I'll get some pics of the completed project to post when im done.

That's interesting about your dad! Those guys were a wealth of knowledge in the squadrons.

I have no doubt that you are making a fine tribute to your dad.

I just meant that, once you start putting patches in unusual places, there's always the risk of the jacket starting to look vaguely...unmilitary. Definitely better I think to keep to the what you've seen on a similar jacket. Looking forward to seeing how this one turns out!

 

[SteveZ]

It just doesnt seem fair. In this great nation there can be ' an old boy network.' My pop wanted a carrier to command in the worst way but I think his ' mustang ' past held him back. He needed ship command experience to get in line for a carrier so he got an assignment as the XO on the USS POCONO ( have the patch ) at his Commander rank but his third time at bat for captain was coming up and he chances were slim against him getting the promotion. I guess the V2 program was always haunting him and he accepted a civilian job with a major defense contractor on the DC beltway that paid a ton more money than a senior captain could ever make. So dad retired !

Yes Deacon. My dads resume was 3 pages long. Sometimes, even today including the military, its not what you know, its who you know to get ahead. How many outstanding and dedicated military personnel have we lost to the ' good old boys club ' standard ?

 

[SteveZ]

Updats,

Just dropped off the G1 flight jacket to the leather tailor shop today. Lady tailor was very impressed with my method to pre attach all the patches on both front and back. I used the U-GLUE brand double sided adhesive strips to mount all of them. Tailor said that they are super thin and can be left in place during the sewing operation. I had 19 total patches to mount and the bill will be 85 bucks total ! I thought she was going to hit me with a least a 150 for all that work. She says it will be ready Wednesday morning.

She really liked the large diameter squadron patch I had custom made from a local emblem shop. She says she wants a couple of snaps to include in her web site since this is such a large and unusual job. She said that the U-GLUE strips method was very clever and she will suggest to others to use it. She can now start sewing without disturbing all the pre positioned emblems. Probably why she gave me such a cheap estimate because the hard part of emblem placement is all done.

I'll get wife to get a couple of of pics to post here.