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[jlee562]

One can get a little anal about hat clasification. I guess it's best to remain flexible regarding definitions as there are too many differences of opinion as to what is what. If a hatter or vendor wants to call a certain hat something, so be it. The hat I posted is called a 'Porkpie' by both Stetson & JJ hatters, even though it isn't strictly a porkpie.

Not to beat a dead horse...but I'm not sure where you're seeing this called a pork pie.

Oddly, though they show a Diamond crease Biltmore under the "Pork pie and telescrope" crown filter, they do not show the Stetson Morgan.

product description:

The Morgan by Stetson is perfect for those looking for a unique diamond crown with a stingy brim. Ideal for any occasion, the Morgan has a beautiful four corner shape with 3 1/2" crown and a 1 3/8" brim. Effortless style for any season.

Made in the USA
Satin Lining
Ships in a JJ Hat Center hat box at no extra charge.
Measurement taken from size 7 1/4 (58cm). Measurements will vary with hat size.

 

[deadlyhandsome]

I'm thinking of getting a new hat to replace rabbit fur felt I bought from a non experience hatter in my home town (it was a low price tag of 130$ anyway).

Thinking of switching it up and I am usually partial to the pinch but thinking of a modified telescope crown with a bit of a an angle so not quite a pinch but not a full circle from the top view (more like an egg shape). But my question is, since the telescope is a flat top, does it sit more shallow on your head? And may not feel as solid? I only remember trying 1 telescope crown hat but it was also too big for me.

Kind of like this

Looks a lot like a gambler. Here’s a nice looking version from our own @Mustang Mike’s Hats

https://www.mustangmikeshats.com/product-page/gambler-of-the-old-west


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[JessieJames]

Looks a lot like a gambler. Here’s a nice looking version from our own @Mustang Mike’s Hats

https://www.mustangmikeshats.com/product-page/gambler-of-the-old-west


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Ya I did see "gambler" during my search, but is it more shallow though because of the flat top?

 

[deadlyhandsome]

There used to be a link on this forum to date vintage Stetsons. Is there something similar to date a Borsalino? I own several but do not know how to tell their vintage.

And the Stetson dating threads are all still there...not all of the photos still work.


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[Hat and Rehat]

Well, I emailed the person in the photo on the website and got the answer! He got it here:

https://www.goorin.com/collections/...brim-wool-felt-porkpie?variant=13916865757236

I was actually thinking about that hat earlier today, wondering if I was out of line with my quip. I probably was, and apologize for any offense. Like DH said, there is no great love for the very small brims that seem to have come back in vogue lately, particularly in all of the fabric hats coming out of China.
Instead of joking about it, I tried to picture it and see if I could steer you in some general direction.
When I really tried to bring a picture of it in my mind's eye, there was something about the proportions that seemed wrong. It seemed too long and low, making me think of the soft fabric caps worn by airmen that fold together flat.
I suspect the guy pictured in the hat has a long oval head. It's probably not the best hat for him, because the low crown and small brim really bring out that fact, and his head, in turn, makes those features of the hat seem exaggerated.
Now that I saw the model wearing it in the store ad, as well as the guy he seems to have swapped hats with, I think my hunch may be a good one. On other heads, it almost looks like another hat, with a bit more crown to it.

h


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[deadlyhandsome]

Ya I did see "gambler" during my search, but is it more shallow though because of the flat top?

That’s one of the best parts of going custom, you can specify the dimensions you want. Also, it’s been my experience that the crown is further off my head as the center is even with the outside and not recessed as with other creases.


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[JessieJames]

That’s one of the best parts of going custom, you can specify the dimensions you want. Also, it’s been my experience that the crown is further off my head as the center is even with the outside and not recessed as with other creases.


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I know it's a beauty when you know exactly what you want! but a curse when you don't

 

[Hat and Rehat]

What is a porkpie?
Something I read a while back said the name came out of New Orleans, in the deep South, in the days of Jim Crow segregation. The story was that young black bluesmen couldn't earn a living playing, so also worked odd jobs in the daytime. They were also so broke they couldn't afford a decent hat, so took castoff hats, cutting off most of the brims that had lost any real form, as wool will do if it's worn in the weather enough. So, they were wearing small, round hats (which was less about the crown than the cut down brim), but the final piece of the puzzle, according to this story, was that one of the common odd jobs was to hit the street hawking meat pies for various restaurant kitchens. These fellows would walk around shouting, "Pork pies! Pork pies here!"

Take that for what it's worth. I'm sharing it, not endorsing it.

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[Weatherman]

I copied most of that info, I need something on Borsalinos that's similar...

 

[deadlyhandsome]

I copied most of that info, I need something on Borsalinos that's similar...

That’s a whole lot of work. I’m sure we’d all be grateful for such a thread, but who’s going to start that huge undertaking? And I’d like similar threads for Champ, Mallory, Cavanagh, Dobbs, Resistol, Panizza, Lee, Knox, Churchill, etc. while we’re at it.


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[Lean'n'mean]

Not to beat a dead horse...but I'm not sure where you're seeing this called a pork pie.

Oddly, though they show a Diamond crease Biltmore under the "Pork pie and telescrope" crown filter, they do not show the Stetson Morgan.

The old nag is far from dead so keep on floggin'
You're right about The Morgan not being described as a 'porkpie' on the website but I was mislead by Kevin.......4:29

If you look around the net, the 'pork pie diamond' seems to be pretty common, whether or not it's a real pork pie I'll leave that for others to decide but it does appear to be the best description.

 

[Steinbockhase]

What is a porkpie?
Something I read a while back said the name came out of New Orleans, in the deep South, in the days of Jim Crow segregation. The story was that young black bluesmen couldn't earn a living playing, so also worked odd jobs in the daytime. They were also so broke they couldn't afford a decent hat, so took castoff hats, cutting off most of the brims that had lost any real form, as wool will do if it's worn in the weather enough. So, they were wearing small, round hats (which was less about the crown than the cut down brim), but the final piece of the puzzle, according to this story, was that one of the common odd jobs was to hit the street hawking meat pies for various restaurant kitchens. These fellows would walk around shouting, "Pork pies! Pork pies here!"

Take that for what it's worth. I'm sharing it, not endorsing it.

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Interesting story.
For what it's worth; this is what Wikipedia has on Pork Pie:

"The first hat to be called a pork pie was a hat worn primarily by British and American women from around 1830 through to about 1865. It consisted of a small round hat with a narrow curled-up brim, a low flat or slightly domed crown with a crease running around the inside top edge, ....... what made them "pork pies" was the shape and crease of the crown and the narrowness of the brim (sometimes called a "stingy brim" in reference to its brevity)."

So actually a Pork Pie was orginally a Ladies hat

 

[deadlyhandsome]

What is a porkpie?
Something I read a while back said the name came out of New Orleans, in the deep South, in the days of Jim Crow segregation. The story was that young black bluesmen couldn't earn a living playing, so also worked odd jobs in the daytime. They were also so broke they couldn't afford a decent hat, so took castoff hats, cutting off most of the brims that had lost any real form, as wool will do if it's worn in the weather enough. So, they were wearing small, round hats (which was less about the crown than the cut down brim), but the final piece of the puzzle, according to this story, was that one of the common odd jobs was to hit the street hawking meat pies for various restaurant kitchens. These fellows would walk around shouting, "Pork pies! Pork pies here!"

Take that for what it's worth. I'm sharing it, not endorsing it.

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I’m pretty sure the name “pork pie” came from the UK. Meat pies are still more common there than in the US. The name comes from the shape of the hat as it resembles an actual pork pie.


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[drmaxtejeda]

I’m pretty sure the name “pork pie” came from the UK. Meat pies are still more common there than in the US. The name comes from the shape of the hat as it resembles an actual pork pie.


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No wonder they're mostly brown, then. [emoji2]

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[deadlyhandsome]

The old nag is far from dead so keep on floggin'
You're right about The Morgan not being described as a 'porkpie' on the website but I was mislead by Kevin.......4:29

If you look around the net, the 'pork pie diamond' seems to be pretty common, whether or not it's a real pork pie I'll leave that for others to decide but it does appear to be the best description.

Honestly, I’m not trying to be argumentative: How do you differentiate between a stingy brim fedora/trilby and a pork pie with a diamond crease? I have several stingy brims and some have diamond creases. If the same hat has a teardrop crease does it become something else? Yours is the first reference I’ve heard of a diamond creased hat being referred to as a pork pie

Taxonomy by its nature always has an element of the arbitrary and a heathy dose of ambiguity.

 

[Robieman]

I call myself reading thru the thread on how to identify by crest and liner. But can't seem to find the answer. So I will impose on you folks to ask, do you know when Stetson started using the smaller oval crest on the sweat band that goes the width of the sweat, not the length of it? Hope that makes sense.

 

[The Jackal]

Ya I did see "gambler" during my search, but is it more shallow though because of the flat top?

I can only speak for my straw gambler, but it seems to have more room above my head than some of my other hats

 

[Steinbockhase]

Ya I did see "gambler" during my search, but is it more shallow though because of the flat top?

I can only speak for my straw gambler, but it seems to have more room above my head than some of my other hats

I have already converted many crowns into "Pork Pie's" or "Gambler's" (IMO the difference is just the width of the hat brim).
How much head-room you have (within the hat) just depends on how high or low you crease the dome / top of the hat; it is actually that simple!
I personally like a low-profile crown, but also like to be able to pull the hat down close to my ears. So you have to fool around somewhat until you find the sweet-spot in crown height.

 

[Lean'n'mean]

Honestly, I’m not trying to be argumentative: How do you differentiate between a stingy brim fedora/trilby and a pork pie with a diamond crease?

I think the difference is in the height of the crown. Pork pies tend to have low or even very low crowns. Modern pork pie hats, i.e. those made to be pork pies & nothing else, have low crowns to start with, even if you open them up, there is very little height to play with.
Trilbys for me, have medium height, tapered crowns & stingy brims (2" or slightly under)
You can put a pork pie crease into a normal fedora but again, according to my own definition, that does not make them pork pie hats. That begs the question: are hats defined by the crease or by their initial form.
Now, lets discuss Brixton pork pie hats.

 

[Steinbockhase]

You can put a pork pie crease into a normal fedora but again, according to my own definition, that does not make them pork pie hats.

Why not, if all the other factors like brim etc. are equal to a typical pork pie?

That begs the question: are hats defined by the crease or by their initial form.

How would you know what the original form and crown shape of a used vintage hat was, if the pre-owner did some re-shaping?