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[Brad Bowers]

Here's an answer I gave someone else a while back:

Good question! This is one of those questions that is hard to explain if you don't have examples of each to compare, but there are some things to look for. If you have the hat in hand, the easiest way is to look for a label or a stamp on the sweatband. Generally speaking, if any hat made since 1939 has any percentage of wool in it, the manufacturer is required by law to post the percentage. If you're looking at vintage hats, this would include the majority that you might run across, as most won't predate 1939. If it was made before the 1939 law, or if the sweatband is missing, or if you are watching an eBay auction, that makes it harder to tell. There were wool felt hats made prior to 1939 as lower-priced hats, but today they are extremely rare to find because they weren't made in the great numbers that fur felt hats were made, and usually didn't survive too many years of wear. Also generally speaking, fur felt is tighter and denser than wool felt, and finishes out much finer and smoother than wool. If the hat has a rougher finish, it's possibly wool instead of fur, but not necessarily, as there are some fur felt finishes that are intentionally left rough. I realize this might not help as much as you might like, but it gives you some information to start with. Experience is the best educator, and once you've held a wool felt hat side by side with a fur felt hat, you'll be able to spot the difference right away.

Brad

 

[fedoracentric]

The smell is one way. A fur felt doesn't smell anything like a woolie.

 

[John Galt]

The smell is one way. A fur felt doesn't smell anything like a woolie.

Beaver felt smells like molasses. Wool felt smells like lambasses.

 

[bombin]

Thanks for the answers. I have a modern (1990s) wool bowler, and a just acquired pre-1934 (according to the remnant of a United Hatters of North America label - thanks Brad) bowler. I assume the latter to be actual fur felt (it feel much tighter and smoother than the wool one, though the wool one has suffered a lot of outdoor weather).

I assume a "burn test" wouldn't help - both wool and fur would smell like burnt hair, I assume.

The vintage bowler I got doesn't seem to smell like anything in particular. Nor does the wool one.

 

[John Galt]

.The vintage bowler I got doesn't seem to smell like anything in particular. Nor does the wool one.

Get them a little wet, best with a spray bottle. Wool smells like wet dog. The higher the beaver content, the sweeter the molasses smell. I will say, however, that I didn't realize this was a felt issue until I got a real beaver pelt and noted it had the same smell I'd scentsed -) on my beaver 100's.

I assume it's the musk I'm smelling rather than a felting chemical, because I note it most on the high quality beaver bodies and the aforementioned pelt.

 

[fedoracentric]

Ha, usually the soft felts are the ones that can be told by smell more easily. The hard hats have too much shellack in them to easily pass the smell test. Woolies smell very obviously like a mangy sweater, especially when they get a bit wet.

 

[Brad Bowers]

bombin, your Derby is most likely made of some blend of European hare and rabbit. It could also be Nutria, as that was popular in the early twentieth century as a replacement for beaver. A true beaver blend or all-beaver hat is rare, as it was expensive, and only used on the more expensive hats. If I had to guess, I'd say that at least 85% or more of stiff and soft felt hats made prior to 1970 are hare/rabbit.

Brad

 

[mayserwegener]

You see Wool / Loden - Fur blends in old European hats. Take a look at this old Austrian catalog. Some of the higher priced hats are Loden or Loden - Fur mixes (yes Beaver - Loden mixes). Also more exotic Wool types have a higher price point.

http://germanaustrianhats.invisionzone.com/index.php?/topic/134-alois-pichler-hut-niederlage-wien/#entry805

I have a good number of German and Austrian Wool and Fur - Wool mixed stiff felts. Also some German Wool and Fur - Wool mix soft felts (including Wool Velours).

Here is an old German soft felt that is probably a Wool - Fur blend. It definitely has Wool content.

http://germanaustrianhats.invisionzone.com/index.php?/topic/130-ems-hutfabrik/#entry753

Here is an old German Wool stiff felt (Negretti is a type of Wool). Very light weight ~ 110 grams. Notice the lint collection which is characteristic of Wool.

http://germanaustrianhats.invisionzone.com/index.php?/topic/58-negretti/#entry321

Both of these hats are fantastic. Nothing like Wool hats of today.

I recently posted this C. G. Wilke Wool stiff felt. As I mentioned I have a good number of German and Austrian stiff felts and they all have survived the test of time.

http://www.thefedoralounge.com/showthread.php?32818-The-Bowler-or-Derby-Hat&p=1810999&viewfull=1#post1810999

Side note: Beaver fur superior felting characteristics were an advantage but eventually stains were produced that allowed Hare to close the gap (I have found some interesting information recently). For the highest quality German and Austrian Velour specific Hare types produced the best results (better than Beaver) regarding finish and color. There would be a some amount of raw Muskrat fur (or Beaver, Nutria) to help in the felting process.

Top Quality Velour (Fur content)

http://germanaustrianhats.invisionzone.com/index.php?/topic/140-die-hutmacherkunst-ein-handbuch-fuer-den-klein-und-grossbetrieb-by-carl-bortfeldt-1902/#entry825

 

[bombin]

Interesting stuff. And I learned about a new creature: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nutria (also called "coypu').

 

[mayserwegener]

The views on this forum are mostly from a American / English perspective. You had Euro Hare types that were very difficult for American hat companies to import. Also specialized finishes came here later (you see Velours become popular around 1910). Take a look at this report from the International Exhibition, 1876 By United States Centennial Commission on JHS.

 

[bombin]

@mayserwegener: Why were those types hard to imports into the US? (Were they equally hard to import into the UK?)

 

[fedoracentric]

My guess is trade restrictions and tariffs. Am I right?

 

[mayserwegener]

Because of wars, tariffs, ect. Countries were protecting domestic markets. Also the UK and US did not make such Hare finishes. The UK was especially slow to change. I have looked at copies of the Hatter's Gazzette from the late 1890s into the early 1900s and they don't even mention such finishes or color variations. They pretty much only produced smooth finish black stiff and soft felt hats. They never made anything like this.


http://germanaustrianhats.invisionzone.com/index.php?/topic/6-johann-hueckel%c2%b4s-soehne-hueckel-hutfabrik-weilheim/page__st__20#entry273

 

[mayserwegener]

My guess is trade restrictions and tariffs. Am I right?

Yes it was very complicated situation in Europe. For example after WWI JHS had to setup a factory in Silesia to overcome tariffs from products coming out of Czecho-Slovakia (was Austria before up to WWI) into Germany. There were also labor cost issues. Italy had very low labor costs (also less worker health - safty concerns) which Germany, France and Austria couldn't compete against.

Sorry for the thread drift!

 

[Brad Bowers]

Because of wars, tariffs, ect. Countries were protecting domestic markets. Also the UK and US did not make such Hare finishes. The UK was especially slow to change. I have looked at copies of the Hatter's Gazzette from the late 1890s into the early 1900s and they don't even mention such finishes or color variations. They pretty much only produced smooth finish black stiff and soft felt hats. They never made anything like this.


http://germanaustrianhats.invisionz...ckel-hutfabrik-weilheim/page__st__20#entry273

I'm confused. Are we just talking special finishes? Because the American manufacturers received all (or almost all) of their hare pelts and rabbit pelts from various European countries. The only North and South American animals they used in any kind of quantity were beaver and nutria, with the odd mink and such thrown in here and there. True, wars caused shortages, leading to experiments with casein, other natural fibers, and manmade fibers, and tariffs raised prices, but on the whole they continue to this day to import their pelts from Europe.

Brad

 

[fedoracentric]

I would imagine that the problem was in finished hats, not pelts of even blanks. Countries were trying to protect their craftsmen, but raw materials in this case may have been less of an issue because there wasn't that much to protect.

 

[John Galt]

Saw Mayserwegener's comment above, and second it. I've only handled two quality wool blend hats of the type he's described, but they were amazing. Definitely wool, but very soft & pliable notwithstanding.

 

[mayserwegener]

I'm confused. Are we just talking special finishes? Because the American manufacturers received all (or almost all) of their hare pelts and rabbit pelts from various European countries. The only North and South American animals they used in any kind of quantity were beaver and nutria, with the odd mink and such thrown in here and there. True, wars caused shortages, leading to experiments with casein, other natural fibers, and manmade fibers, and tariffs raised prices, but on the whole they continue to this day to import their pelts from Europe.

Brad

Also from Australia (it appears the English controlled this trade). There would be shortages of Hare types used for Velour finishes. This would be around WWI. I am not sure if there were tariffs on raw fur (probably source dependent) but there were on finish and semi finished products. London and Leipzig were fur auction centers up to WWI.

 

[mayserwegener]

I would imagine that the problem was in finished hats, not pelts of even blanks. Countries were trying to protect their craftsmen, but raw materials in this case may have been less of an issue because there wasn't that much to protect.

With raw fur it probably had to do with the source country. They definitely did with finished and semi finished products within Europe.

 

[mayserwegener]

Saw Mayserwegener's comment above, and second it. I've only handled two quality wool blend hats of the type he's described, but they were amazing. Definitely wool, but very soft & pliable notwithstanding.

I am sure some here would not like the feel of the soft felt I posted. This is what it looks like with side dents. This hat is from the 1930s.

Here is another interesting one. I am pretty sure it has Wool content. A very light weight thick felt!

http://germanaustrianhats.invisionzone.com/index.php?/topic/16-wilke-hutfabrik/page__st__20#entry938

This soft felt is probably pre WWI. You can see the lint collection. It might be Negretti wool because the finish looks very similar to the stiff felt I posted.

http://germanaustrianhats.invisionzone.com/index.php?/topic/60-c-w-n-hutfabriken/#entry325

This fur blend (Otter, Beaver, Wool) is from late 1700s (rough translation from German, Fabrikation von Damen- und Herren- Filzhüten, Der Deustchen Hutmacher Zeitung (1933)) .

From the otter skins dusty and heavily contaminated hairs were first torn out and the skins then rubbed with a stain of nitric acid and mercury. After the stain was still diluted with river water, rubbed it off the skins with this solution. After drying the skins on, they were softened and smooth and then cut. The mixture, which is now produced for a hat made of the following materials together: 6 Lot Otter Hair, 1 Lot Beaver Hair, 1 Lot Red Vognone Wool, 4 Lot Unprepared Otter Hair. These materials are four similar times were produced, which were connected by wet and felts. The fulling felt this was made in a kettle with water and yeast wine. Then the hat was drawn to a form where it dried.

Lot (unit)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lot_(unit)