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[Rmccamey]

OK, team, I need a sharp pair of eyes to read this year date. Any ideas?

 

[The Lost Cowboy]

I’m not sure if this is one of those things where I’m thinking too much about it, but how is a crown height measured? Is it measured from the brim up or from the ground up (e.g, including the thickness of the brim)?
I guess the brim thickness is negligible for many hats but some brims can be 1/8 of an inch or more, no? My Fed IV brim is that thick, so do they include the brim in the stated crown height?
Thanks for any help!

I’m gonna answer my own question in case anybody else ever stumbles across here with a similar query.

I measured a bunch of my hats today by popping out the bashes and putting my ruler into the hat at the deepest point. I then observed where the head opening in front and behind the ruler aligned together with the marks on the ruler.

I got completely unambiguous measurements with this technique: most of the hats I measured are 5 1/2 but some westerns are 5 3/4.

So yeah, don’t measure from the brim up - you gotta include the brim as part of the crown height.

 

[belfastboy]

I’m gonna answer my own question in case anybody else ever stumbles across here with a similar query.

I measured a bunch of my hats today by popping out the bashes and putting my ruler into the hat at the deepest point. I then observed where the head opening in front and behind the ruler aligned together with the marks on the ruler.

I got completely unambiguous measurements with this technique: most of the hats I measured are 5 1/2 but some westerns are 5 3/4.

So yeah, don’t measure from the brim up - you gotta include the brim as part of the crown height.

I always measure from the brim up. To me it is the only way to obtain an accurate measure. And if I do it this way every time my measurements are consistent. I lay a straight edge along the top of the open crown and measure up from the top of the brim. This way I am measuring the aspect of the crown that is visible to the eye. The eye sees the the intersection of the brim and crown and thus notices the vertical plane of the crown from the top of the brim upwards. The eye does not take into account the 1/8th inch of brim width as the leading edge of the brim is multiple inches away from the vertical plane of the crown.

 

[The Lost Cowboy]

I always measure from the brim up. To me it is the only way to obtain an accurate measure. And if I do it this way every time my measurements are consistent. I lay a straight edge along the top of the open crown and measure up from the top of the brim. This way I am measuring the aspect of the crown that is visible to the eye. The eye sees the the intersection of the brim and crown and thus notices the vertical plane of the crown from the top of the brim upwards. The eye does not take into account the 1/8th inch of brim width as the leading edge of the brim is multiple inches away from the vertical plane of the crown.

I never thought to put a straight edge along the top of the crown. It occurs to me that for most hats we would get the same result; it’s just that in your technique you leave out the brim felt but include the crown felt whereas in my technique I include the brim felt but leave out the crown felt.

To measure the height of the entire hat would require using your technique but measuring from the ground up instead of the brim up (being sure that the brim is completely flat, of course). However that s obviously not how crown height is measured since you and I both get even readings with our techniques.

The question is, does the industry include the brim felt or the crown felt in their crown height measurements?

Perhaps I will have to pull out my biggest western where the crown felt is significantly thinner than the brim felt and try both of our ways to see which one lands on an even measurement.

Thanks!

 

[Frunobulax]

I never thought to put a straight edge along the top of the crown. It occurs to me that for most hats we would get the same result; it’s just that in your technique you leave out the brim felt but include the crown felt whereas in my technique I include the brim felt but leave out the crown felt.

To measure the height of the entire hat would require using your technique but measuring from the ground up instead of the brim up (being sure that the brim is completely flat, of course). However that s obviously not how crown height is measured since you and I both get even readings with our techniques.

The question is, does the industry include the brim felt or the crown felt in their crown height measurements?

Perhaps I will have to pull out my biggest western where the crown felt is significantly thinner than the brim felt and try both of our ways to see which one lands on an even measurement.

Thanks!

I think the measurement should be the airspace under the hat, or how much opening is there? So I don't consider the felt at all.

I use your method, but I flip the hat upside down under a desk or table and run the ruler into the center of the crown, measuring to where it hits the bottom of the table.

 

[belfastboy]

I never thought to put a straight edge along the top of the crown. It occurs to me that for most hats we would get the same result; it’s just that in your technique you leave out the brim felt but include the crown felt whereas in my technique I include the brim felt but leave out the crown felt.

To measure the height of the entire hat would require using your technique but measuring from the ground up instead of the brim up (being sure that the brim is completely flat, of course). However that s obviously not how crown height is measured since you and I both get even readings with our techniques.

The question is, does the industry include the brim felt or the crown felt in their crown height measurements?

Perhaps I will have to pull out my biggest western where the crown felt is significantly thinner than the brim felt and try both of our ways to see which one lands on an even measurement.

Thanks!

I work with 95gram FEPSA felt that is very thin....1/16th of an inch so it makes little difference. 1/16" to the human eye at a distance will make little difference.

 

[The Lost Cowboy]

I think the measurement should be the airspace under the hat, or how much opening is there? So I don't consider the felt at all.

I use your method, but I flip the hat upside down under a desk or table and run the ruler into the center of the crown, measuring to where it hits the bottom of the table.

If i understand you correctly, you've got about half the hat under the table with the head opening facing up and you stick the ruler in and then use the bottom of table to find the measurement on the ruler. Is that correct?

If so, then it seems to me that you are taking into consideration the felt that is at the intersection of the brim and the crown, since that portion is part of what is under the table being measured.

I think that intersection should be included but I also feel that the crown felt should be included, since both go into crown height. I find it interesting that none of our techniques includes both.

 

[The Lost Cowboy]

I work with 95gram FEPSA felt that is very thin....1/16th of an inch so it makes little difference. 1/16" to the human eye at a distance will make little difference.

Agreed, 1/16" is pretty negligible. But I'm still wondering if there is an industry standard for how crown height is measured.

 

[belfastboy]

Agreed, 1/16" is pretty negligible. But I'm still wondering if there is an industry standard for how crown height is measured.

I think the only way to find out would be to contact Stetson or Akubra or some entity large enough to be able to set an industry standard.
In my experience when measuring hats already creased to discern the measure of crown at front, sides and back I do measure from the brim up and it invariably matches the published spec of the maker...such as Stetson.

 

[Vegasgirlalways]

Hi, I really need help identifying the age of this hat. I think it is a boss of the plains but unsure. Is it worth anything? Any info you have would be great. Thank you so much.

 

[Frunobulax]

If i understand you correctly, you've got about half the hat under the table with the head opening facing up and you stick the ruler in and then use the bottom of table to find the measurement on the ruler. Is that correct?

If so, then it seems to me that you are taking into consideration the felt that is at the intersection of the brim and the crown, since that portion is part of what is under the table being measured.

I think that intersection should be included but I also feel that the crown felt should be included, since both go into crown height. I find it interesting that none of our techniques includes both.

You are correct, and I think you're overthinking the rest.

My assumption is that a mass produced hat's OC is a function of the height of the block, not the hat. If the design of a Strat is for a 5 1/2" crown, then that's the block used.

If so, then since the felt is stretched over the block to the bottom, the brim felt is included, as the brim will rest on whatever the block is sitting on, which is consistent with how I do it.

In any case, hats aren’t precision instruments, so the deviation is inevitable.

 

[The Lost Cowboy]

You are correct, and I think you're overthinking the rest.

My assumption is that a mass produced hat's OC is a function of the height of the block, not the hat. If the design of a Strat is for a 5 1/2" crown, then that's the block used.

If so, then since the felt is stretched over the block to the bottom, the brim felt is included, as the brim will rest on whatever the block is sitting on, which is consistent with how I do it.

In any case, hats aren’t precision instruments, so the deviation is inevitable.

Crown height determined by block size makes perfect sense from what little I know about blocking (which is not much).. I need to watch more videos to understand how blocks work, but yeah, I was definitely overthinking it if that’s the case. Thanks.

 

[AbbaDatDeHat]

^^^you guys are blinding me with Science!

 

[Borsalino Fan]

This seems to work on other sites, so I figure that it deserves a shot here.

If you've got a quick hat question and don't see a thread for it, just post it here. Whether the question is about cleaning, anatomy of a hat, brands, etc., this is the place.

Here's one to break the ice.

Yes! Thanks for this post! I'm searching for Borsalino...felt or Panama..from the '40's or '50's...preferably from a store in Boston which was called Scott & Co., Ltd.

 

[belfastboy]

You are correct, and I think you're overthinking the rest.

My assumption is that a mass produced hat's OC is a function of the height of the block, not the hat. If the design of a Strat is for a 5 1/2" crown, then that's the block used.

If so, then since the felt is stretched over the block to the bottom, the brim felt is included, as the brim will rest on whatever the block is sitting on, which is consistent with how I do it.

In any case, hats aren’t precision instruments, so the deviation is inevitable.

Some felts do shrink up more than others while drying on the block. I have had some felts that necessitated adding an extension to the block so I could block it to 6 1/2" to allow for shrinkage and still end up with a full 6" open crown.

 

[Frunobulax]

Some felts do shrink up more than others while drying on the block. I have had some felts that necessitated adding an extension to the block so I could block it to 6 1/2" to allow for shrinkage and still end up with a full 6" open crown.

I was going to say customs would vary, based on what you've posted before. I think this is limited to mass production, where consistency is the name of the game.

 

[The Lost Cowboy]

^^^you guys are blinding me with Science!

Well I once ordered a custom hat at 5 3/4 inch crown height and got back what looked to be 5 1/2. I was otherwise happy with it but also didn’t know if I was measuring the crown properly, so I just let it go.

Fast forward to today and I am ordering a second custom and I’d like to be sure I understand how to measure the final product.

So yeah, I’d like there to be some science involved.

 

[Rmccamey]

That's a very nice hat. If it is your first, you've made a big splash!

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Hi, I really need help identifying the age of this hat. I think it is a boss of the plains but unsure. Is it worth anything? Any info you have would be great. Thank you so much.

 

[Blare]

You are correct, and I think you're overthinking the rest.

My assumption is that a mass produced hat's OC is a function of the height of the block, not the hat. If the design of a Strat is for a 5 1/2" crown, then that's the block used.

If so, then since the felt is stretched over the block to the bottom, the brim felt is included, as the brim will rest on whatever the block is sitting on, which is consistent with how I do it.

In any case, hats aren’t precision instruments, so the deviation is inevitable.

I was reading your discussion and was about to say essentially what Jim said here.

I think we are thinking about this backwards in an attempt to measure already produced hats. Whereas in reality a block was made for a specific height and the felt stretched to fit over the block. If the manufacturer so chose… the Hat was tagged with the block height.

The discussion though does make me think that my method of grabbing the tape measure I keep in my side drawer and just eyeballing is not the most accurate method. A small adjustable T Square would really do the trick

By the way…. with the exception of open crown… there is also the issue of whether one might measure to the top of the higher point in the crease…. Or the lower point of the dent. As Jim said… measurement should likely be for clearance. But as to aesthetic I usually measure to an average peak

 

[jlee562]

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Hi, I really need help identifying the age of this hat. I think it is a boss of the plains but unsure. Is it worth anything? Any info you have would be great. Thank you so much.

Well that actually may be a Boss of the Plains. Can you measure how tall it is and the width of the brim? And clearer picture of the tags inside? Or can you read what it says in the right side one? A Boss should be 4 1/2" tall with a 4" brim. Other models with the same general (block) shape do exist, so it's impossible to say with 100% certainty. There is a BoP logo stamp which is not here, but that's not necessarily dispositive. The fact that it's black is a little confounding. I can't swear to it, but I would think a BoP would be more common in a lighter color.

As far as value, we generally don't do that (eBay can be fickle). But that's a pre-war hat, so more desirable than average. The smaller size hats tend to attract less attention, but 7 1/8 is on the cusp I think.

Too bad it's just one size away for me!