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[georgie girl]

Very good. I'm around a 7 1/8 myself. It's a knox twenty and that seems to get mentioned in the threads a lot with good reviews.

 

[Bill Hughes]

Has anybody bought from The Brass Rooster Hat Company? I noticed the thread for the Brass Rooster only has one hat posted and that was 2 years ago. What's up?

 

[The Shoe]

Also, a little steam, maybe pressing it with the tip of a steam iron, should tame that bow.

Thanks for the advice - good as new!

 

[Dotneck]

But the older I get, the better Mrs. Howell looks.

Its amazing how she never seems to get any older!

 

[belfastboy]

Has anybody bought from The Brass Rooster Hat Company? I noticed the thread for the Brass Rooster only has one hat posted and that was 2 years ago. What's up?

He certainly is not a guy that you hear much about. I shy away from hatters whose prices tip the scale. We have so many great and master hatters available to us at very reasonable price points. I decided I did not need to find out if those that charge so much more offer value for the dollar. How much better can you make a Winchester beaver felt look and feel?

 

[belfastboy]

Interesting thread in the "Permanent Style" blog. The blogger has purchased custom hats from Optimo and Wellema and writes reviews. I asked him directly if he could discern a difference in the visual quality or feel of the felt between the two...Optimo of course with the Fepsa and Wellema with Winchester. The blogger states he cannot discern any great difference in the feel and look between the two. Wellema comes in at $600 or so for his hats and I guess Optimo is double that. The blogger goes on to say that he speculates that Optimo's edge is in the better quality felt that will only show over time. That it will last and look good for more years than the Wellema Winchester justifies the extra $$$. My oldest custom is about 12 years old so I cannot comment on that. So from his review I would say spend the extra $$$ on Optimo if you want to pass your fedoras down to your kids or grandkids. How Wellema justifies his extra cost is still a question....perhaps it is just what his LA market will bear.

 

[deadlyhandsome]

Interesting thread in the "Permanent Style" blog. The blogger has purchased custom hats from Optimo and Wellema and writes reviews. I asked him directly if he could discern a difference in the visual quality or feel of the felt between the two...Optimo of course with the Fepsa and Wellema with Winchester. The blogger states he cannot discern any great difference in the feel and look between the two. Wellema comes in at $600 or so for his hats and I guess Optimo is double that. The blogger goes on to say that he speculates that Optimo's edge is in the better quality felt that will only show over time. That it will last and look good for more years than the Wellema Winchester justifies the extra $$$. My oldest custom is about 12 years old so I cannot comment on that. So from his review I would say spend the extra $$$ on Optimo if you want to pass your fedoras down to your kids or grandkids. How Wellema justifies his extra cost is still a question....perhaps it is just what his LA market will bear.

I’ve mentioned before that a new hatter hung up her shingle 15 miles from where I work. I visited her a few times and found her lack of knowledge terrifying. All her hat making tools would fit in one milk crate. She didn’t have a block my size but offered to make me a custom hat without using a properly sized block or brim flange all for the reasonable price of $695 and up. She is a very attractive and charming woman, but her prices were laughable. At least with an Optimo you’re guying a prestigious brand, not that that matters to me, but at least it’s something. Sometimes it’s a matter of “cheap you buy, cheap you get,” but just as common is paying more without getting more.

I’ve only handled one Optimo as I was the go between for another Lounge member. I was not blown away by the felt. Nice, but not exceptional.

 

[jlee562]

In addition to using their buying power for exclusive FEPSA color runs, Optimo also decatises their hats, a heat treatment that helps with longevity and durability. A previous Permanent Style blog entry also talks about how Optimo ages felts in climate controlled rooms. I've had my Optimo for about nine years now, and the felt definitely has become more supple.

I will say though, that I disagree somewhat with the framing that a hatter should "justify" their prices on the basis of Fedora Lounge speculation because the bodies come from Winchester.

A painting hanging in a museum uses the same raw materials (paint, canvas) that may have come from the same manufacturer as any other painting. But a painting by Joe or Jill Artstudent is not "worth" as much as a Picasso.

Do we sit back and ask how Picasso "justifies" the prices his art commands? After all, it's just canvas and paint. If one feels - at the individual level - that the price/value ratio isn't there, so be it. But I'm not wholly on board with the idea that there is a median price for hats after which hatters need to "justify" their pricing. Especially when we have - at best - incomplete information of the production techniques of all hatters. Steve Delk, of Adventurebilt infamy, also had a secret way to 'deaden' the felt.

 

[belfastboy]

In addition to using their buying power for exclusive FEPSA color runs, Optimo also decatises their hats, a heat treatment that helps with longevity and durability. A previous Permanent Style blog entry also talks about how Optimo ages felts in climate controlled rooms. I've had my Optimo for about nine years now, and the felt definitely has become more supple.

I will say though, that I disagree somewhat with the framing that a hatter should "justify" their prices on the basis of Fedora Lounge speculation because the bodies come from Winchester.

A painting hanging in a museum uses the same raw materials (paint, canvas) that may have come from the same manufacturer as any other painting. But a painting by Joe or Jill Artstudent is not "worth" as much as a Picasso.

Do we sit back and ask how Picasso "justifies" the prices his art commands? After all, it's just canvas and paint. If one feels - at the individual level - that the price/value ratio isn't there, so be it. But I'm not wholly on board with the idea that there is a median price for hats after which hatters need to "justify" their pricing. Especially when we have - at best - incomplete information of the production techniques of all hatters. Steve Delk, of Adventurebilt infamy, also had a secret way to 'deaden' the felt.

Yes, it always goes back to that a craftsman/artist charges what he thinks his market will bear. We have a painting in the National Gallery of Canada that we paid multiple millions for It is a large canvas...half of it is painted black ...the other half is painted white. Is it art? Did it require enormous skill to create.....I don't know but I have to tip my hat to the dude because he convinced someone to pay $3 million for it.

Perceived value is a slippery thing....You value your Optimo therefore you perceive it was a worthwhile transaction. Your money, your choice. I on the other hand chose to have 2 of Black Sheep and 2 of Leon Drexler's hats for about the same expenditure. It is just a choice we make.

 

[belfastboy]

I read yesterday in the 1919 Hat Repair Manual that there is a process of "smoking" at hat. No mystery, you place the hat in a box and allow smoke into the box. Apparently the smoking closes the pores of the felt in some way and produces a better felt. I was wondering …"but wouldn't it smell?"

 

[jlee562]

Yes, it always goes back to that a craftsman/artist charges what he thinks his market will bear. We have a painting in the National Gallery of Canada that we paid multiple millions for It is a large canvas...half of it is painted black ...the other half is painted white. Is it art? Did it require enormous skill to create.....I don't know but I have to tip my hat to the dude because he convinced someone to pay $3 million for it.

Perceived value is a slippery thing....You value your Optimo therefore you perceive it was a worthwhile transaction. Your money, your choice. I on the other hand chose to have 2 of Black Sheep and 2 of Leon Drexler's hats for about the same expenditure. It is just a choice we make.

If you got 4 custom hats for $600, you did pretty well.

Otherwise, I again reiterate what I said above about incomplete information.

 

[belfastboy]

If you got 4 custom hats for $600, you did pretty well.

Otherwise, I again reiterate what I said above about incomplete information.

No the comparison was with the Optimo you referenced. And it probably works out to 3 1/2 hats to equal the Optimo. My oldest custom is coming up to 12 years old....it still looks great and it too has softened up. But then all my Winchester beaver felts have softened up with wear.

 

[jlee562]

No the comparison was with the Optimo you referenced. And it probably works out to 3 1/2 hats to equal the Optimo. My oldest custom is coming up to 12 years old....it still looks great and it too has softened up. But then all my Winchester beaver felts have softened up with wear.

I did not pay 2020 Optimo prices in 2011.

edit to add: Leon Drexler was selling hats for $425 in 2011, Bob was at $285. So, no, you absolutely did not not get 3 1/2 - 4 hats for the $595 I paid for the Optimo.

 

[deadlyhandsome]

All any of us can say is what a hat is worth to us. If you’re not using it as an investment or otherwise planning on selling it then it’s value is a completely personal and subjective thing. My wife doesn’t think my 1930s Stetson No. 1 is worth $10, but to me it’s worth a lot more because I really like the hat.

I agree that there are skill levels and artistry involved in hat making, not to mention specialized knowledge and equipment, that goes beyond the raw materials used. There is also the law of diminishing returns where you start paying a lot more for items that are only marginally better than those at a lower price point. There is also pride of ownership and the desire for exclusivity. I don’t begrudge Optimo for his prices, but I’m also not going to consider buying one of his hats. To me, the value isn’t there, so I’m resigned to oooohing and ahhhing at others’ purchases and dreaming about my powerball numbers coming up.

 

[jlee562]

I know it seems like I'm getting really defensive over the Optimo, but it's less about Optimo and their processes and more about the fact that each maker has their marks. As I mentioned during my personal Worth and Worth fiasco, I work as a florist. My store is over in Berkeley, catering to a certain clientele. There's another shop here in SF that's in a trendier neighborhood with a younger, more tech-y clientele. Most of their work is priced higher than mine. And, tbh, with good reason because they're very skilled at what they do and I'm not afraid to say they have more artistic designs than me. But I've also literally pulled bunches of flowers out of the same buckets from the same wholesalers at the same time.

So aside from the fact that I think folks should be duly compensated for their time and labour, I also appreciate uniqueness in design where the value added eclipses that of the raw materials.

How does one value Art Fawcett's bow work? It's only a nominal amount of ribbon for the splash of contrast he has in his signature bows, but on the other hand, we all recognize it as a VS bow. The material cost is tiny, but the value added is much bigger, IMHO.

 

[belfastboy]

I did not pay 2020 Optimo prices in 2011.

edit to add: Leon Drexler was selling hats for $425 in 2011, Bob was at $285. So, no, you absolutely did not not get 3 1/2 - 4 hats for the $595 I paid for the Optimo.

Okay, things change over a decade. Bringing it into today's terms (for accuracy's sake). 2 Blacksheep and 1 Drexler (Drexler quotes prices in Canadian dollars not US) equals 1 Optimo. Or 3 of Art's, or 3 of NWHats plus a bottle of whisky, I have stated all along I don't begrudge any artist/artisan their price points....they get to charge what their market will bear. All commodities unless controlled by government find their market level. Optimo & Wellema have their markets I just don't happen to be part of it. I salute the painter that got the Canadian government to pay the millions for his study in black and white....good on him.i

 

[deadlyhandsome]

I know it seems like I'm getting really defensive over the Optimo, but it's less about Optimo and their processes and more about the fact that each maker has their marks. As I mentioned during my personal Worth and Worth fiasco, I work as a florist. My store is over in Berkeley, catering to a certain clientele. There's another shop here in SF that's in a trendier neighborhood with a younger, more tech-y clientele. Most of their work is priced higher than mine. And, tbh, with good reason because they're very skilled at what they do and I'm not afraid to say they have more artistic designs than me. But I've also literally pulled bunches of flowers out of the same buckets from the same wholesalers at the same time.

So aside from the fact that I think folks should be duly compensated for their time and labour, I also appreciate uniqueness in design where the value added eclipses that of the raw materials.

How does one value Art Fawcett's bow work? It's only a nominal amount of ribbon for the splash of contrast he has in his signature bows, but on the other hand, we all recognize it as a VS bow. The material cost is tiny, but the value added is much bigger, IMHO.

I agree with you completely. I’m also a lifelong capitalist and if the market is there at those prices for them that’s all that matters. I’ve wondered why BSHW doesn’t raise their prices as the two year wait tells me the market would probably accept a higher price.

I also like how established artisans prove themselves and then distinguish themselves. The cream rises and hopefully those who are deserving are rewarded.

 

[Frunobulax]

I know it seems like I'm getting really defensive over the Optimo...

And here I thought you were defensive abt the money, LOL.

Agree with the rest. Plus, if enough folks are giving you your asking price for your product, why change?

 

[jlee562]

And here I thought you were defensive abt the money, LOL.

Agree with the rest. Plus, if enough folks are giving you your asking price for your product, why change?

Ha!

TBH, about 2/3rds of the Optimo was stipend and per diem money I saved from a graduate seminar I was at in DC that summer.

And mostly it was about getting the Dillinger hat from Public Enemies. It captivated me almost as much as the Indiana Jones hat.

 

[Rmccamey]

Has anyone heard from Daniele recently? Hope he is doing ok.

@Daniele Tanto