Ascots

[Alexi]

Dear Sir,
may I respectively point out a few things?

First off Hussar is not really a term tied specifically to Hungarian or Hessians (two separate groups BTW), but is related to corsair and is a term used from the 16th century onward to denote light irregular cavalry. Hussars were fielded by every major European army. During the 30 years war the terms croat, hussar and tarter were used interchangeably and without respect to ethnicity

Secondly Croatians were know for their cavalry, they were fielded by the Holy Roman Emperor to harass baggage trains and stragglers to great effect (the battle of Lutzen comes to mind)

Thirdly the Austro-Hungarian Empire did not exist till the 1860's over 230 years after the 30 Years War and the term croat came into common parlance for light irregular cavalry. The actual Croatians served the Holy Roman Emperor who the French opposed during the 30 years war. The Holy Roman empire also was opposed to the French in The War of Spanish Succession There was no alliance between the French and anyone the Croatians would have served until the 7 Years War, that would have been the first time Croatians may possibly have marched in Paris, but it would not have been in victory.

Actually sir, they were Croatian Mercenaries fielded by the Austro-Hungarian allies of the French. Furthermore, Croatians are a far faaar cry from Hessians or "Hussars" which were entirely different from the Croatian or Slavic and Scythian or Dacian derived Croatians. Hungarians are hence Hun; Magyar derived people and the style of dress worn by Hungarians and Croatians are quite mutually exclusive and distinct from one another as can be observed from various historical illustrations, especially those dealing with military uniforms.

Incidentally, the Croatians can arguably be presented as one of the oldest groups of Western people to make and continue the use of neck-wear, particularly knotted and perhaps decorative neck-wear at least in part, as may be observed on Trajan's column in the portion depicting the defeat of the Dacians and Thracians who lived in what is now Croatia, Yugoslavia, Romania and other adjoining districts though, not as a cohesive cultural force as such.

Furthermore, the Croatians are not particularly known for their cavalry as are the Hungarians.

That is all.

 

[Evan Everhart]

An ascot is a style of cravat, the day ascot cravat tie is shorter than the formal length ascot cravat. They are ment to be worn tucked under the shirt.

The Ascot (also known as the Day Ascot Cravat tie):

A formal length ascot cravat:

These formal length cravats are worn over the shirt and go under the vest usually.

Then there is the Regency Cravats which is the old old style of cravat:

Actually, I must disagree upon one point; that is that the term Ascot does not refer to simply a type of cravat, but rather the term refers to the knot tied in the cravat. An ascot knot is the formal knot so often observable in equestrian wear worn with a pin through the two opposite sides which flow from either end of the square knot which is the Ascot knot. In short, the Ascot knot is actually a square knot tied in a cravat. You are very correct however upon your other points regarding casual and formal cravats (which formal cravats are only meant to be worn during formal day-time events with morning wear). That said, the length of a cravat is immaterial to its formality as traditionally, one's waist-coat came at least to within four inches of the top of the breast bone below the collar bone. Some cravats were actually worn intentionally short or with intentionally low-gorge waist-coats to show shirt front between the two as below in the example of the Comte de Montesquiou:
http://images.google.com/imgres?img...en-US:official&um=1&ei=LTPjSsGvAZW-tAPd48zODA

Anyhow, great stuff sir!

 

[Evan Everhart]

Is there a difference between an ascot and a cravat? Is it materials? Shape? How you tie it? Where/when you wear it?

The Ascot is a knot, the most formal type of knot which one may tie in a cravat. Cravats, generally speaking are for day-wear, bow-ties for evening wear. The Ascot knot is a basic square knot. One usually wears a horizontally or diagonally placed stick-pin thrust through the two loose ends which extend from the knot after it is tied. The loose ends are crossed across the chest of the wearer so that they should resemble an 'X' and so that no shirt front may be seen between the two crossed ends and below the knot itself. this can also be accomplished when the Ascot cravat is worn tucked into the shirt front but then it is not advisable to wear the cravat with a stick-pin (nor is it necessarily needful to do so as the shirt and collar will hold your neatly knotted cravat in place) unless the stick-pin has a tip cover as some of my own do. The tip cover prevents you from getting stuck by your own pin. Anyway, the cravat is the neck-cloth itself and can be rolled from any reasonably large silk or cotton square or bought as a pre-rolled and usually pressed silk, linen, cotton, or woolen model and worn accordingly.

Cheers and hope that was in some way helpful in answering your comment.

 

[Evan Everhart]

Yes. IMO not a good use of time, unless you really, really want a particular pattern. I wanted a polka-dot WW2 RAF-type thing. Making the lining fit is the most difficult part.

You can also just roll your own cravat as was originally done. I can't remember where, but somewhere on this site, I have very exacting directions for rolling your own cravat. It's fun and easy and gives a beautifully tying cravat which can be easily washed or laundered without the necessity of elaborate pressing. It need only be hand dried or press dried in the case of silk or easily flat-ironed in the case of cotton, linen, or wool. Right-oh.

 

[Evan Everhart]

This is indeed a great book, if anyone is in the UK they always seem to be selling it off in T M Lewin Shirtmakers. It does cover a lot and has information on a lot of topics covered on the forum. I always find the section on a luggage and that on accessories rather illuminating.

I LOOOOOOOOOOOVE THIS BOOK! An aunt got it for me for a birthday when I was younger and I've thoroughly enjoyed it ever since though, he is rather opinionated upon certain subjects, I CANNOT agree with him regarding his opinion of Todd's shoes ( I HATE them), and I also cannot agree with him on detachable collars or tassel loafers. Other than that, he's spot on and his research is pretty thorough. Oh, and he didn't say much on formal day-wear or even know how to tie an Ascot cravat! UGH! Still, a GREAT Resource! Spot on Sir!

 

[Dan D]

DIY cravats...

I've created several by simply purchasing a large square of fabric from a material shop - in particular, one in Walthamstow High Street in East London - which one simply folds into a triangle, and then rolls from tip to base; one then either ties and tucks into the shirt-collar, or lets hang in front like a scarf before buttoning the jacket. Highly recommended if you spot a fabric you particularly like - mine are in single colours, in dark brown, orange, electric light-blue, electric dark blue, and work for casual day-wear or the blues for evening wear.

Well worth having a go.

 

[Evan Everhart]

I have, I think at last count, a little over a dozen cravats. Most of mine were purchased via eBay, though I also picked up some at one of the vintage fairs in Chelsea Town Hall last year at #4 a pop (some of my favourites, actually). A tip is if you're looking on eBay to hunt for them under 60s stuff, and "mod" - for some reason, most ebay sellers seem to think the likes of Paul Weller invented the cravat. [huh] FWIW, I have also seem some nice, plain-colour silk numbers in Tie Rack, which could be worth looknig into. Ex-wedding hire can be a good find, especially if you want to wear it more formally as a neck tie over the shirt. You just need to be careful here that they understand that you are looking for a real cravat rather than one of those ghastly pre-tied confections with the clip on band (similar to a clip-on bow tie - in every sense). You'd be surprised how many folks think that's what a cravat is... and don't even get me started on what they call a "scrunchie tie"...

A great place to get cravats is from higher-end equestrian-wear dealers such as http://www.horsecountry.net/ who have an excellent selection of cravats. Check out some of the women's cravat selections as well, some are very attractive and could be worn by men as well. Anyhow, best of look and good hunting with your cravats!

 

[Evan Everhart]

Ive been looking on line for cravats, but nothing I have to have, imagine my delight when I saw a wedding Hire shop near my home!,( they sell ex-hire items) despite having a basketfull of shopping I thought I might go in and ask about Cravats, A steely eyed Matron asked me "What do you want it for?" I kind of panicked thinking, there may be a "Cravat strangler" on the prowl in my neighbourhood and not watching televesion I was oblivious. I explained, rather cowardly that I was going to a fancy dress party, its not as if I was after a bridal frock !!! for a fancy dress party so she rummaged out the back, for a while and then came back and said, no they didn't have any at the moment, she would check the warehouse for me, so hopefully!!!! I said in that case get a selection and I will then make my choice(s) , I am the customer after all!

By the The way while she was "rummaging" out the back I sat in the reception and perused this book, which was on the coffee table with the bridal magazines, no-one offered me a sherry!"

great guide to the "English Gent Style" even covers smoking jackets!!!!!

http://www.horsecountry.net/

Dig their cravats, both the Men's and Women's selections are Great and for the most part are unisex. (meaning that they can indeed be worn by men) and they are mostly self-tie!

 

[Brummagem Joe]

This is indeed a great book, if anyone is in the UK they always seem to be selling it off in T M Lewin Shirtmakers. It does cover a lot and has information on a lot of topics covered on the forum. I always find the section on a luggage and that on accessories rather illuminating.

.......I've had this book for years and it is a good resource........sorry I can't share the cravat enthusiasm........their status as a parodic item of wear has rendered them obsolete I fear......I wear a silk/Linen/Cotton scarf sometimes which produces a similar effect but without quite (I'll admit it's close) the same pejorative overtones.

 

[Smithy]

The Ascot is a knot, the most formal type of knot which one may tie in a cravat. Cravats, generally speaking are for day-wear, bow-ties for evening wear. The Ascot knot is a basic square knot. One usually wears a horizontally or diagonally placed stick-pin thrust through the two loose ends which extend from the knot after it is tied. The loose ends are crossed across the chest of the wearer so that they should resemble an 'X' and so that no shirt front may be seen between the two crossed ends and below the knot itself. this can also be accomplished when the Ascot cravat is worn tucked into the shirt front but then it is not advisable to wear the cravat with a stick-pin (nor is it necessarily needful to do so as the shirt and collar will hold your neatly knotted cravat in place) unless the stick-pin has a tip cover as some of my own do. The tip cover prevents you from getting stuck by your own pin. Anyway, the cravat is the neck-cloth itself and can be rolled from any reasonably large silk or cotton square or bought as a pre-rolled and usually pressed silk, linen, cotton, or woolen model and worn accordingly.

Cheers and hope that was in some way helpful in answering your comment.

It should also be pointed out that "ascot" is an American term for this form of neckwear. In the UK and Commonwealth you will only hear reference to cravat (either day or formal) but never ascot. Mention of ascot outside of the US will have people think that you are referring to the racecourse.

 

[Solid Citizen]

Brit STYLE Book

great guide to the "English Gent Style" even covers smoking jackets!!!!!

Bought a copy of that book several years ago @ Barnes & Noble, its WORTH having! Solid Citizen

 

[LordBest]

I made that mistake once. Everyone looked at me like I had gone mad when I asked where he put the horses. Then they all started laughing because they thought I was making a lewd joke. Not my best moment.

I have a copy of that book, it really is good.

It should also be pointed out that "ascot" is an American term for this form of neckwear. In the UK and Commonwealth you will only hear reference to cravat (either day or formal) but never ascot. Mention of ascot outside of the US will have people think that you are referring to the racecourse.

 

[grantway]

cravats

Oh yes! what a corker of an idea I shall look for a tripod for my Box Brownie. imediately after Dinner on Ebay

Binkie
Did you ever find your box brownie? I have a collection of cravats and most are of the standard paddle-end variety. I found one in a public park market which was made in France and is beautifully made, is silk and has larger dimensions than the others. Only cost $3 !

 

[Evan Everhart]

How to tie an cravat with a formal knot.

 

[Evan Everhart]

How to tie a cravat with a formal knot.

This is the classic way that the cravat was tied. This is the way it was usually worn in the 19th century for formal wear or more any sort of wear for that matter and incidentally the way that cravats are still worn for formal equitation.

 

[Dr Doran]

Does anyone else find this illustration rather difficult to understand?

 

[Evan Everhart]

Does anyone else find this illustration rather difficult to understand?

The knot is a basic square knot. The only consideration that should be taken whilst tying it, is that the center of the knot be flat and appear as a plain square. One would not wish the back or un-tidy side of the knot to be visible (though I have seen this from time to time in old photographs). I find the illustration rather illuminating and self-explanatory.

 

[Evan Everhart]

After a fruitless search for a suitable cravat for a fast approaching party I have resolved to attempt to make my own, as a temporary solution. What I am finding difficult to locate however is any form of pattern or dimensions for a Day Cravat similar to the one pictured. Any help you all can provide will be most appreciated.

Samuel.

http://www.tomsawyerwaistcoats.co.uk/webupload/tsawyer/small/day-crav-j124.jpg

To craft your own cravat, simply take a square silk, or linen, or cotton scarf of roughly 40" and up and lay it flat on a table. Next, you will take the two diagonally opposite corners and fold them to meet along the invisible line which connects the two diagonally opposite points which are not being folded. After having folded the two points so that they meet one another at the invisible line, make narrow folds along the same two folds until you have two rolled or folded portions which meet one another along the invisible line. Flare out the ends of the folded scarf where they form points and tie in a square knot with the line where the two folded portions meet showing outward and the flat underside which was lying on the table against your neck. Wear and enjoy having crafted your very own cravat just like the originals were made and worn before pre-folded and stitched cravats were available!

 

[MarkL]

Love your avatar!

Dear Grantaway,

I love your avatar with the ascot. I have a passion for ascots, and its always a joy to see someone else who shares that passion.

mark

Binkie
Did you ever find your box brownie? I have a collection of cravats and most are of the standard paddle-end variety. I found one in a public park market which was made in France and is beautifully made, is silk and has larger dimensions than the others. Only cost $3 !

 

[grantway]

Dear Grantaway,

I love your avatar with the ascot. I have a passion for ascots, and its always a joy to see someone else who shares that passion.

mark

You're welcome! Obviously, I like them too! Grantway