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Are notch lapel dinner jackets "correct"?

Opinions on NLDJ?

  • Faux pas

    Votes: 12 41.4%
  • Perfectly acceptable

    Votes: 17 58.6%

  • Total voters
    29

Vladimir Berkov

One Too Many
Messages
1,291
Location
Austin, TX
Ed13 said:
As far as notch lapels, it may be acceptable with some, it is not acceptable with all. If you are an artist or Hollywood type then go crazy. If not, wearer beware. The clothing snobs will be watching.

But who are the clothing snobs?

We are at a point in history much like the time in the late 19th and early 20th century when the dinner suit/tuxedo usurped the tailcoat. In both cases the standard eveningwear had become entirely static, the exact requirements agreed-upon with virtually no room for deviation. In comes the newcomer, and a new period of experimentation ensues. The old standard eventually dies out or becomes so pigeonholed that it becomes mere costume.

The true dinner suit/tuxedo is today what the tailcoat was in 1920. A garment still worn, still correct, but rapidly being lost in a sea of derivative informality. The only difference is that unlike 1920, today there is no successor to the tuxedo. The only things agreed upon seem to be that it involves a black coat, black trousers and black tie. All else can be variable.

In such a state, what real snobbishness can exist which could possibly denigrate the wearing of a traditional notch-lapeled dinner suit?
 

Edward

Bartender
Messages
25,081
Location
London, UK
Good point, Vladimir.... Is, perhaps, black tie on the verge of being pigeonholed as a 'costume' for a particular occasion - much like morning dress has become 'wedding wear'? ill it be 'Oscar party wear' in future.... or even, in the US, simply "wedding wear"?
 

Fletch

I'll Lock Up
Messages
8,865
Location
Iowa - The Land That Stuff Forgot
Surprised this discussion has had such staying power when looking thru a few 1920s photos would suggest that the notch lapel had a pretty good following at the time. Sometimes an ounce of research is worth a pound of advice.
 
Messages
8
Location
Canada
Good point, Vladimir.... Is, perhaps, black tie on the verge of being pigeonholed as a 'costume' for a particular occasion - much like morning dress has become 'wedding wear'? ill it be 'Oscar party wear' in future.... or even, in the US, simply "wedding wear"?

There's an interesting quote I found on that topic, from the Black Tie Guide:

Today most men choose their formal attire based on the marketing campaigns of an industry that treats the tuxedo as a novelty costume, on the influence of poorly dressed celebrities walking the red carpet, and on the latest fads from brand-name designers wantonly disregarding the tried-and-true conventions that lie at the heart of black tie's timeless appeal.

Especially on modern television shows, I see the dinner jacket being treated like a "costume". This is very unfortunate, but not inevitable.
As for the subject of the notch lapel dinner jacket, I suppose it can look fine if the rest of the outfit is traditional, but I personally don't wear it because it looks too much like a common business suit, especially if you start adding extra buttons, vents, etc.
 

TheStig

New in Town
Messages
13
Location
Edmonton, AB
They are as correct as bluchers are for dinner jacket usage.

Meaning, definitely not something I'd do, nor is it for perfectionists, but 99% of people out there wouldn't..... know any better.
 

Qirrel

Practically Family
Messages
590
Location
The suburbs of Oslo, Norway
They've been around since the beginning. I just don't understand them being talked about as a sartorial faux pas now when they never were before.

Connery.jpg

I concur. They were and have always been acceptable:

http://digitalgallery.nypl.org/nypl...lothing & dress -- 1920-1929&s=3&notword=&f=2

http://digitalgallery.nypl.org/nypl...lothing & dress -- 1910-1919&s=3&notword=&f=2

http://digitalgallery.nypl.org/nypl...lothing & dress -- 1900-1909&s=3&notword=&f=2

I'm sure you can find notch lapels in there.
 

Tomasso

Incurably Addicted
Messages
13,719
Location
USA
this is simply a matter of the manufacturers cutting corners by using their regular lounge suit jacket pattern to produce DJs.
This theory was dispelled some time ago on another forum when a manufacture said that patterns are change regularly on factories floors with no substantial costs being incurred.
 

avedwards

Call Me a Cab
Messages
2,425
Location
London and Midlands, UK
This theory was dispelled some time ago on another forum when a manufacture said that patterns are change regularly on factories floors with no substantial costs being incurred.
That may be the case but it still appears that many off the rack notched lapel DJs have the same cut as a common suit - with two buttons and a single rear vent.


Personally I will always insist that a notched lapel dinner jacket is and always has been correct. However, it must obey the other rules of black tie such as only having one button, no vents (perhaps occasionally two small vents) and be worn with the correct accessories. The picture above of Sean Connery demonstrates this. His dinner jacket is bespoke tailored and has all the correct details. I know this for a fact because one of my friend's grandmothers did the fittings on Connery's suits.
 

bumphrey hogart

One of the Regulars
Messages
159
Location
cornwall,England
The real elephant in the room is the shawl collar, whilst DJs as a whole are an informal bastardisation of proper evening dress, at least the peak and notch have some historical precedence, the shawl was an attempt at copying mess jackets and I believe was seen as a travesty when it first became fashionable, certainly Jeeves is horrified when Bertie first brings one home and disposes of it at the first opportunity, telling Bertie 'he'll be mistaken for a waiter'.
 

Doc Average

One of the Regulars
Messages
146
Location
Manchester, UK
The real elephant in the room is the shawl collar, whilst DJs as a whole are an informal bastardisation of proper evening dress, at least the peak and notch have some historical precedence, the shawl was an attempt at copying mess jackets and I believe was seen as a travesty when it first became fashionable, certainly Jeeves is horrified when Bertie first brings one home and disposes of it at the first opportunity, telling Bertie 'he'll be mistaken for a waiter'.

Sorry to be a stickler, but that's only partially correct. Jeeves and Berite's aunt were actually horrified by his white mess jacket, not a shawl lapelled dinner jacket.

The shawl lapel on eveningwear is, I believe, as old as the Tuxedo itself, and dates back to the late 1880s.
 

brspiritus

One of the Regulars
Messages
146
Location
Jacksonville, Fl.
The only place I would have occasion to wear a dinner outfit is the annual RITA Chartiy Ball in June, $250 per couple, black tie requested although 90% choose to wear it. There is an interesting mix of people at the event, moneyed people from Ponte Vedra and along the river in San Marco, wealthy businessmen and noveau riche hotshot politicians and lawyers. If you go and you want to stand out, in a bad way, by all means wear a notch lapel DJ. It may have more to do with the overall formality of the event (which should be white tie IMHO) but NLDJ are frowned upon (as are the goofballs who show up in a regular suit or "business casual").
 

bumphrey hogart

One of the Regulars
Messages
159
Location
cornwall,England
The shawl lapel on eveningwear is, I believe, as old as the Tuxedo itself, and dates back to the late 1880s.[/QUOTE]

Which comes I think is from where the term 'tuxedo' originally comes from, I should have googled this but I believe it was an American socialite who entered the Tuxedo club wearing a cut off evening tail coat and the 'tuxedo' and DJ was born.
brspiritus, This was covered really well earlier in the thread, all of these rules are produced by the cognoscenti at a particular time to differentiate between themselves and the hoi polloi, of course regardless of what you choose to wear everyone else is the hoi polloi,lol.
Doc,looking back you are absolutely correct,but I think the principle still holds.
 

Tomasso

Incurably Addicted
Messages
13,719
Location
USA
If you go and you want to stand out, in a bad way, by all means wear a notch lapel DJ.
Isn't it interesting that men of distinction and style wore the NLDJ on the world stage for at least a century without even a snicker but would be mocked today at the RITA Chartiy Ball ( $250 per couple) in Backwater, FL. Go figure.:rolleyes:



Franklin D. Roosevelt (left) and John N. Garner, Vice President-November 22, 1932

U206804ACME.jpg

Arturo Toscanini-1947

CN00001594.jpg


Jimmy Stewart-1956

BE051815.jpg


Cary Grant-1981

50739033.jpg


Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh-2002

PrincePhilip.jpg




The fact is that from day one Semi-Formal (Black Tie) was never held to the same standard of correctness as was Formal (White Tie). Peak, shawl and notch were all correct. Any rules to the contrary are made up by people to validate their preferences.

http://www.thefedoralounge.com/showthread.php?6761-Formal-Wear-Primer/page42
 

brspiritus

One of the Regulars
Messages
146
Location
Jacksonville, Fl.
Isn't it interesting that men of distinction and style wore the NLDJ on the world stage for at least a century without even a snicker but would be mocked today at the RITA Chartiy Ball ( $250 per couple) in Backwater, FL. Go figure.:rolleyes:

The problem is most people who have money around here consider themselves part of the Old South Aristocracy and hence cling to some very outdated values no matter how misplaced. Truth be told these same people will go snobbish over the cut of dinner jacket but walk around on a normal day dressed like it's golf time.
 

Richard Warren

Practically Family
Messages
682
Location
Bay City
Makes you wonder who the goofball is, one who follows the existing social convention or one who flauts it to conform to some idea of correctness. Philip may not be much, but as a standard for etiquette, what more could you want.
 

Tomasso

Incurably Addicted
Messages
13,719
Location
USA
:eek:fftopic:


Look at the s**t eating grin on Cary's face as he stands next to his wife, 47 years his junior. He's a cradle robber but he don't care.



50739033.jpg
 

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