Applying Obenauf's Boot Preservative to a leather jacket

[Coriu]

The irony is that an RRL jacket whose noteworthiness we are debating today may be something utterly droolworthy in 50 years. Who knows, there might be a forum in the future dedicated to Wilsons leather jackets and collectors of such.

I think the RRL jacket in this thread is gorgeous. I grew up poor and supported myself from an early age. I could only dream of owning a jacket like that until later in life. And no matter how many fancy clothes I have today, I will never forget those days.

 

[yellowfever]

Funny I was wondering in the last few months if I could pull off a trench coat, in leather of course

You almost certainly can and you should try it!

Leather trench-coats are pretty full on and they can (especially in black) have some unfortunate historical associations... so they are perhaps not for the feint of heart.

Or for the feint of shoulders/spine as they are inevitably quite heavy, especially when double breasted (as I’d argue they should be) and heavy lined (again as they should be as a a mostly winter coat).

But I’ve had three. A very heavy and long moleskin lined vintage Elvo dispatch riders trench-coat in dark brown leather that I still have and is my go to for really cold winter weather in Europe. A lighter weight seal coloured horsehide shorter length wool lined trench coat from Pegasus for colder times in spring/autumn and winter too. And I used to have (until it was stolen) my all time favourite vanson black competition hide wool lined Luftwaffe coat (see my avatar - sadly few good pics of it) silver buttons and all!

I admit it was a bit of a leap of faith to get one (my first leather trench was the very full-on black vanson, so straight in at the deep end), But I get/got mostly very positive reactions to all of these jackets. They all get more spontaneous compliments from strangers and friends alike then the rest of my jackets put together!

I see folk on here saying it’s sadly too cold to wear their leather jackets at times, so they reluctantly choose something non-leather. I’m pretty skinny and feel the cold, but I have been too hot at -8C in my Elvo this winter (albeit with a thick jumper on) and had to wear it open! They are windproof, cover a lot of your body, seal up well and work really great. Depending what you get they can be quite formal and worn over a suit or more casual. So a great versatile winter coat in my view. Actually I’d really like to get a Bakesha as they look really cool, but I don’t live in the artic so it would never be cold enough to put it on...

 

[jglf]

You are right, there are no videos of the LW factory, but there are pics around...
They source the leather from their own tannery, they actually buy horses themselves from brokers and have the skins tanned in their tannery rather than just buying leather straight away.

That’s pretty wild. Can’t imagine how much more the leather hide ends up costing after buying the horse, having it slaughtered, and then paying a tannery to tan it’s hide. Can’t get better quality control than that!

 

[yellowfever]

I had one but recently sold it. It was way too heavy and a bit too small as well. Burberry Prorsum.
View attachment 310316

It’s a smart look, but you do need a bit of room under it for layering and for it to look right. Trench coats were originally pretty roomy to wear over uniforms and still give freedom of movement. More modern very close fitting cuts can IMO still look OK in gaberdine etc, (though they should not be too short which can look silly and they shouldn’t be so tight you can’t comfortably wear it over a structured suit). But in leather I think they can get too restrictive cut like that.

It’s a fine line. You don’t want to wear a big leather tent, especially given modern cut preferences, but it shouldn’t fit too closely and make you look like a leather sausage either! Maybe erring more towards a greatcoat style cut (which trench-coats were originally somewhat inspired by, as a lighter weight version) with the belt offering a slightly tighter silhouette is the way to go.

It’s true the weight of such coats is maybe not to everyone’s taste. We’re used to lighter weight fabrics. But it’s maybe no different from wearing a shearling rather than a down jacket. It depends what you like to wear and the cut can help with wearability too. And it’s great exercise! Maybe one reason I stay warm in my vintage Elvo leather dispatch riders coat is the heat I generate lugging its 4280g weight around on my back!

For a lighter weight (but not light!), shorter (but not stupidly so, though it is above the knee which is not strictly right...) leather trench coat I can recommend the Pegasus trench coat. It’s well made and surprisingly wearable despite 2910g weight (in a 38” with thick wool lining).

So don’t give up on a leather trench just yet, it’s bad enough when the summer is too hot for leather jackets, we cannot allow ourselves to be denied in winter too!

 

[Coriu]

How so?
You are right, there are no videos of the LW factory, but there are pics around...
They source the leather from their own tannery, they actually buy horses themselves from brokers and have the skins tanned in their tannery rather than just buying leather straight away.

Something doesn't add up, Carlos. According to Lost World's website, "No horse was ever killed for its hide, thank goodness. It's the cheapest part of the animal." There are no horse slaughterhouses in the US and commercial production of horse meat is not allowed, so one cannot use the "by-product" rationale in the US, like with cattle.

That said, the only way I can see someone in the US claiming they do not "kill horses for their hides" is by a) illegally harvesting and selling horse meat or b)putting the horses out to pasture and allowing them to live out their lives until one could morally justify euthanasia. Horses can cost over $2000 per year to maintain and with good care can live into their 30's, so the latter would be a terrible business model for leather goods manufacturer. Many perfectly healthy horses are sold each year to "kill buyers"(brokers) in the US who turn around and sell them to slaughterhouses in Mexico and Canada. Sound sketchy...it is.

Also, if a leather goods manufacturer is contracting someone to slaughter its horses in the US, questions can be raised about the manner in which it is done, since such slaughter is not regulated. Killing a horse humanely is much more challenging than killing a cow.

I don't mean any of this to sound accusatory. I just don't see how anyone can claim a horse isn't being killed for its hide unless that horse is being killed for its meat, and that implies the hides are coming from outside the US. I used to work for one of the largest meat producers in the world and managed a huge slaughtering operation, so I know a bit about how that industry works.

One final note about hides being the "cheapest part of the animal." Before the leather industry tanked, a cow hide could bring $70-80 each. That's not exactly chump change and could certainly be motivation enough for someone to kill an animal for its hide alone.

 

[Carlos840]

Something doesn't add up, Carlos. According to Lost World's website, "No horse was ever killed for its hide, thank goodness. It's the cheapest part of the animal." There are no horse slaughterhouses in the US and commercial production of horse meat is not allowed, so one cannot use the "by-product" rationale in the US, like with cattle.

That said, the only way I can see someone in the US claiming they do not "kill horses for their hides" is by a) illegally harvesting and selling horse meat or b)putting the horses out to pasture and allowing them to live out their lives until one could morally justify euthanasia. Horses can cost over $2000 per year to maintain and with good care can live into their 30's, so the latter would be a terrible business model for leather goods manufacturer. Many perfectly healthy horses are sold each year to "kill buyers"(brokers) in the US who turn around and sell them to slaughterhouses in Mexico and Canada. Sound sketchy...it is.

Also, if a leather goods manufacturer is contracting someone to slaughter its horses in the US, questions can be raised about the manner in which it is done, since such slaughter is not regulated. Killing a horse humanely is much more challenging than killing a cow.

I don't mean any of this to sound accusatory. I just don't see how anyone can claim a horse isn't being killed for its hide unless that horse is being killed for its meat, and that implies the hides are coming from outside the US. I used to work for one of the largest meat producers in the world and managed a huge slaughtering operation, so I know a bit about how that industry works.

One final note about hides being the "cheapest part of the animal." Before the leather industry tanked, a cow hide could bring $70-80 each. That's not exactly chump change and could certainly be motivation enough for someone to kill an animal for its hide alone.

I don't know, i'm no FBI investigator and i didn't feel the need to fact check everything Stuart told me.
I had him on the phone last week, i asked him if he owned his own tannery.
He said "not really, i have money in a tannery (part ownership), so i can have them do anything i want"
He said he orders leather once every year or two depending on business.
Said that he used to buy leather straight from the tannery but he found it hard to consistantly get heavy hides that way so in the late 90s he started going through brokers who would source "horses" (already dead) before they were tanned. (raw hides)
That allows him to only buy the heaviest raw hides (he called them "42 or 45 pounders up" or something like that wheras the "regular hides" are "32 pounders up) (i might have the actual weights wrong, we spoke a while and i was not taking notes)
He said he usually bought 350-500 "horses" at the same time, have them sent to the tannery, it then takes a couple months for them to tan the leather to his specs.

They then receive the hides cut in two longitudinally, which means they use the draw (the back) and the horse but as well, whereas most makers only buy FQHH and thus don't have acces to the draw and the but.
If that sounds like it doesn't add up, feel free to give him a call and fact check what he tells you.

 

[red devil]

You almost certainly can and you should try it!

Leather trench-coats are pretty full on and they can (especially in black) have some unfortunate historical associations... so they are perhaps not for the feint of heart.

Or for the feint of shoulders/spine as they are inevitably quite heavy, especially when double breasted (as I’d argue they should be) and heavy lined (again as they should be as a a mostly winter coat).

But I’ve had three. A very heavy and long moleskin lined vintage Elvo dispatch riders trench-coat in dark brown leather that I still have and is my go to for really cold winter weather in Europe. A lighter weight seal coloured horsehide shorter length wool lined trench coat from Pegasus for colder times in spring/autumn and winter too. And I used to have (until it was stolen) my all time favourite vanson black competition hide wool lined Luftwaffe coat (see my avatar - sadly few good pics of it) silver buttons and all!

I admit it was a bit of a leap of faith to get one (my first leather trench was the very full-on black vanson, so straight in at the deep end), But I get/got mostly very positive reactions to all of these jackets. They all get more spontaneous compliments from strangers and friends alike then the rest of my jackets put together!

I see folk on here saying it’s sadly too cold to wear their leather jackets at times, so they reluctantly choose something non-leather. I’m pretty skinny and feel the cold, but I have been too hot at -8C in my Elvo this winter (albeit with a thick jumper on) and had to wear it open! They are windproof, cover a lot of your body, seal up well and work really great. Depending what you get they can be quite formal and worn over a suit or more casual. So a great versatile winter coat in my view. Actually I’d really like to get a Bakesha as they look really cool, but I don’t live in the artic so it would never be cold enough to put it on...

Thanks for such a detailed explanation, I will definitely give it a shot!
I am thinking of getting it in a pliable leather, something like deerskin maybe, to get a good drape. Btw, is your Elvo pliable? Does it feel like a midweight leather?

It has also been my experience so far that you can wear leather jacket in pretty cold weather, as long as you layer well. That being said, living in the UK, I can wear my jackets almost all year long

What is exactly the the Bakesha, looked it up but could not find it?

 

[yellowfever]

Thanks for such a detailed explanation, I will definitely give it a shot!
I am thinking of getting it in a pliable leather, something like deerskin maybe, to get a good drape. Btw, is your Elvo pliable? Does it feel like a midweight leather?

It has also been my experience so far that you can wear leather jacket in pretty cold weather, as long as you layer well. That being said, living in the UK, I can wear my jackets almost all year long

What is exactly the the Bakesha, looked it up but could not find it?

As the Elvo is vintage probably 80+ year old coat, I don’t know what the hide spec is. Steerhide or cowhide probably... or maybe horse, but no hide label stating that so I assume not. Being an old jacket it’s well broken in which helps with wearability, though I had to spend some time restoring it when I got it including cleaning and conditioning the leather. Even so, it’s not as pliable as the Pegasus and the leather is at least as heavy as the 3.5oz horsehide used on the Pegasus I think (though the different lining and lengths make it hard to directly compare leather weights between the two). Like I say, it’s not for the feint-hearted! The Pegasus is a surprisingly easy wear for this style, albeit my definition of ‘easy wear’ may be wildly different to yours, as it’s so subjective and depends on expectations...

Like most niche leather jacket makers, Kevin, the owner of Pegasus has strong and passionately held views. He hates stiff horsehide for jackets, thinks it’s lovely leather, but all wrong for clothing... I’m not nearly as familiar with different horsehides as many folk on here, such as yourself, are. But it’s certainly true the leather on the Pegasus is very different to the horsehide on my vanson Ike jacket, which still stands up on its own after 17 years and plenty of wear. But honestly, when I first got the Pegasus I didn’t love the leather, finding it a bit flat and lacking character. But it’s grown on me over time as it evolves and I do find the drape much more practical for a longer coat. The Ike only really works because it’s a short jacket and gradually softens from body heat once you’ve had it on a while. In winter it would be stiff as a board (not that you’d wear it then, it being a short cotton lined jacket).

The vanson Luftwaffe was everything old competition weight hide is said to be! Heavy, tough and unforgiving. The break in was long and at times brutal, despite wearing it most days every winter as it was my only winter coat. The advantage of not having a choice of jackets is you get the break in done! It was just about perfect after 10 years when it got stolen whilst at Aero for a reline during the William Lauder days... (sob!). The Pegasus was bought partly with the compensation I eventually got from Aero, as my replacement winter coat. I also looked at Lost Worlds who do a lovely looking trench, but the longer wait (I’d already had one winter without a winter coat thanks to the Vanson theft) and higher costs meant I went with Pegasus in the end. Lostworlds do a lovely looking deerskin trench and I know you have some of their jackets already, so maybe that’s one you’re already considering?

As to Bekesha (sorry spelt it wrong first time!) I’d never heard of it either until someone on here flagged them up. Crazy long Russian/Soviet leather military coats with shearing lining and dramatic collars! They look different, interesting and great but far too warm for where I live! Here is a photo of one that was advertised on eBay.

 

[navetsea]

I imagine only Destro the arms dealer form GI Joe would wear that

 

[Colin G]

I see folk on here saying it’s sadly too cold to wear their leather jackets at times, so they reluctantly choose something non-leather. I’m pretty skinny and feel the cold, but I have been too hot at -8C in my Elvo this winter (albeit with a thick jumper on) and had to wear it open! They are windproof, cover a lot of your body, seal up well and work really great.

-8 C is still t-shirt weather here. Lol.

I'll wear leather until it hits about -20 C then I'll choose something with more insulation than a leather jacket with a wool lining. Depending on the leather it can also get kind of stiff when it gets that cold.

Almost nothing adds character more quickly to a new leather jacket like shoveling a lot of snow or doing yardwork in cold weather.

 

[Will Zach]

-8 C is still t-shirt weather here. Lol.

I'll wear leather until it hits about -20 C then I'll choose something with more insulation than a leather jacket with a wool lining.

I thought that @navetsea wrote this (he wrote the post just above) and I am going - WTF???? This climate change is real....

 

[red devil]

As the Elvo is vintage probably 80+ year old coat, I don’t know what the hide spec is. Steerhide or cowhide probably... or maybe horse, but no hide label stating that so I assume not. Being an old jacket it’s well broken in which helps with wearability, though I had to spend some time restoring it when I got it including cleaning and conditioning the leather. Even so, it’s not as pliable as the Pegasus and the leather is at least as heavy as the 3.5oz horsehide used on the Pegasus I think (though the different lining and lengths make it hard to directly compare leather weights between the two). Like I say, it’s not for the feint-hearted! The Pegasus is a surprisingly easy wear for this style, albeit my definition of ‘easy wear’ may be wildly different to yours, as it’s so subjective and depends on expectations...

Like most niche leather jacket makers, Kevin, the owner of Pegasus has strong and passionately held views. He hates stiff horsehide for jackets, thinks it’s lovely leather, but all wrong for clothing... I’m not nearly as familiar with different horsehides as many folk on here, such as yourself, are. But it’s certainly true the leather on the Pegasus is very different to the horsehide on my vanson Ike jacket, which still stands up on its own after 17 years and plenty of wear. But honestly, when I first got the Pegasus I didn’t love the leather, finding it a bit flat and lacking character. But it’s grown on me over time as it evolves and I do find the drape much more practical for a longer coat. The Ike only really works because it’s a short jacket and gradually softens from body heat once you’ve had it on a while. In winter it would be stiff as a board (not that you’d wear it then, it being a short cotton lined jacket).

The vanson Luftwaffe was everything old competition weight hide is said to be! Heavy, tough and unforgiving. The break in was long and at times brutal, despite wearing it most days every winter as it was my only winter coat. The advantage of not having a choice of jackets is you get the break in done! It was just about perfect after 10 years when it got stolen whilst at Aero for a reline during the William Lauder days... (sob!). The Pegasus was bought partly with the compensation I eventually got from Aero, as my replacement winter coat. I also looked at Lost Worlds who do a lovely looking trench, but the longer wait (I’d already had one winter without a winter coat thanks to the Vanson theft) and higher costs meant I went with Pegasus in the end. Lostworlds do a lovely looking deerskin trench and I know you have some of their jackets already, so maybe that’s one you’re already considering?

As to Bekesha (sorry spelt it wrong first time!) I’d never heard of it either until someone on here flagged them up. Crazy long Russian/Soviet leather military coats with shearing lining and dramatic collars! They look different, interesting and great but far too warm for where I live! Here is a photo of one that was advertised on eBay.

View attachment 310513

Ooooohhhhhh!!! That coat looks good, I would want it simply to have it and would make excuses to go to the north just to wear it!

I have been pondering a trench coat not so long ago... maybe two to three months? I had at first in mind of getting one in Bison from LW as you guessed. Reason being I wanted something heavier than deer and still as pliable. Apparently the LW Bison is almost as pliable as moose hide.
But then I thought it could still work well in mid weigh deerskin, my courrier peacoat weighs 2075g according to thefish scale. I would suspect that a full trench would be 50% more with the same rayon lining? so about 3kg? I would suspect that it would be the easiest ot wear in deerskin. I could ask for very light horse (mid weight actually at 3oz) and get something easy to wear as well.

I suspect the heavier bison version would weight about 5kg?

That being said would you still focus on really warm lining or go with something lighter as rayon? Sorry for the disjointed message, just writing my thoughts as they come

 

[yellowfever]

Ooooohhhhhh!!! That coat looks good, I would want it simply to have it and would make excuses to go to the north just to wear it!

I have been pondering a trench coat not so long ago... maybe two to three months? I had at first in mind of getting one in Bison from LW as you guessed. Reason being I wanted something heavier than deer and still as pliable. Apparently the LW Bison is almost as pliable as moose hide.
But then I thought it could still work well in mid weigh deerskin, my courrier peacoat weighs 2075g according to thefish scale. I would suspect that a full trench would be 50% more with the same rayon lining? so about 3kg? I would suspect that it would be the easiest ot wear in deerskin. I could ask for very light horse (mid weight actually at 3oz) and get something easy to wear as well.

I suspect the heavier bison version would weight about 5kg?

That being said would you still focus on really warm lining or go with something lighter as rayon? Sorry for the disjointed message, just writing my thoughts as they come

yeah, those Bekesha coats are so out there (and cheap!) I nearly bought one on principle, despite having no practical use for such a coat! But sanity prevailed in the end...

On leather and lining for a trench, it’s really personal and depends what you want it for. A true winter coat or just for spring/autumn?

Normally on linings for leather jackets I’m a fan of less in more - a lighter lining means a lighter coat you can wear more of the year and then layer under as needs be, so it’s more flexible in all senses. I’ve even replaced a damaged beyond repair quilted lining in an old bike jacket with a not strictly authentic unquilted rayon one, just so I could wear the jacket more of the year..

But for leather trench coats I make an exception. IMO it should be a heavy substantial warm winter coat with nods to greatcoats, not a lightweight thin coat trying to ape the drape of a cotton trench. Besides I own several quality lightweight cotton gabardine trench coats for wet weather in late spring/summer/early autumn which I love, so I’ve no need to attempt a leather version.

If you can get it, moleskin is a fantastic winter coat lining material, warm and super hard wearing with nice nods to vintage European jackets and coats. Wool is also lovely, but will wear more, especially over the legs when you walk given the weight of the leather. That’s why after 10 years of winter wear my vanson needed a reline which led to it getting stolen... whereas the moleskin lining in the Elvo is still good after 80 years!

As to hide, I think it’s wise not to get too heavy/stiff. With a decent lining as I’d recommend and a proper length (no shorter than just above the knee, ideally below the knee) and the double breasted design it’s already getting very heavy. Be prepared for that/sure you can cope with it so you don’t waste your money... and give yourself the best chance by choosing something pliable and not too heavy for the leather. Personally I’d say mid-weight deerskin that you were considering is a very decent choice. You do see long vintage coats in deerskin fairly often, so I guess they thought it worked pretty well back in the day too... lightweight horse sounds good too, but if it’s stiff (particularly in cold weather) maybe less so.

 

[red devil]

If I am not mistaken, the Bekesha coats are still in production?

I just want an all weather coat ideally. I have wool and quilted lined jackets, with quilted jacket edging the wool ones in terms of warmth. But it is doesn't get that cold here, so I might stick with a lining after all.

I am defininitely going all in, to the knees or slightly lower and double breasted. In terms of weight, it really depends on how confortable he pattern is, not sure what to expect. If it is anything clost to my peacoats then it would be very comfortable.

My heaviest jacket is my moose hide jacket at 3780g, but that is a short jacket and extremely confortable. I don't feel the extra weight when wearing it as it all sits squarely on the shoulder.

I get the feeling that pliability is a more important consideration than weight in this instance, so a HH one would probably be as real pain to deal with. I am really sorry about your Vanson, you had done all the hard work to have it taken from you.

 

[powerserge]

As to Bekesha (sorry spelt it wrong first time!) I’d never heard of it either until someone on here flagged them up. Crazy long Russian/Soviet leather military coats with shearing lining and dramatic collars! They look different, interesting and great but far too warm for where I live! Here is a photo of one that was advertised on eBay.

View attachment 310513

I really like Bekesha’s and has to be one of the coziest coats out there. The thing is I would love and hate to wear one of them. Love because it such an amazing coat but hate because it if I have to wear that coat...it must be too damn cold haha

 

[Cornelius]

I really like Bekesha’s and has to be one of the coziest coats out there. The thing is I would love and hate to wear one of them. Love because it such an amazing coat but hate because it if I have to wear that coat...it must be too damn cold haha

I myself debated buying a Bekesha off the bay earlier this winter, but dropped the idea as the expected delivery date would've been sometime in the spring. But now that Chicago's temperatures have remained well below freezing, with a minimum of 10" [25cm] of the snow on the ground for this entire month of February, I am wishing I had the foresight to have ordered one last July or August...

 

[Will Zach]

@Marc mndt - this Polo jacket is a real find for about EUR 200. Maybe in Europe Polo had jackets like these; most of Polo RL I can find on US ebay are overpriced lambskin windbreakers, smooth and soft as baby's ass, for $400. RRL are much nicer jackets, but that is yet another tier.

 

[Marc mndt]

@Marc mndt - this Polo jacket is a real find for about EUR 200. Maybe in Europe Polo had jackets like these; most of Polo RL I can find on US ebay are overpriced lambskin windbreakers, smooth and soft as baby's ass, for $400. RRL are much nicer jackets, but that is yet another tier.

You are right, these were designed for the European market. But once in a while I do see some of the good ones popup on American eBay as well. The problem being, American sellers know what they've got and ask $500.
There's an endless supply of those lambskin windbreakers on the European market as well. The challenge is to spot the good ones. I've worked for RL so I can spot those from miles away.
Just yesterday I bought this one for my gf for just €50. I hope she'll like it as much as I do

 

[Will Zach]

looks super. send me a heads up if you see one in US 38-40

 

[Marc mndt]

looks super. send me a heads up if you see one in US 38-40

I did a quick search and found a couple of good ones. Most of the asking prices are ridiculous unfortunately. Here's a small selection.

Same jacket in a decent color. Size M (fits like 42) $600

https://www.ebay.nl/itm/184557067510

Newsboy jacket xl. $400

https://www.ebay.nl/itm/303878648301

This one I really like. Reversible halfbelt size M. $190. If this one was listed in Europe I would have BIN.

https://www.ebay.nl/itm/274671696757