Apology?

[Art Fawcett]

MK, since this is the only board I am subscribed to, I have no point of reference. I DO appreciate the freedom to say what is important to me and I DO love a good informed civil debate. I believe this board is inhabited by some pretty informed & classy individuals so let's have at it!!))

 

[Andykev]

Yeah?

But have you eaten with them?

HHAHAHAHHHAH

LOL LOL LOL

 

[Fedora]

I see the whole confict in the Middle East in very simple terms. The followers of Islam will never accept the Jewish folks living right in the middle of them. Just look at the antics of Arafat over the years, the last time being when Clinton was about to leave office. They plan to never accept it. Anathema folks. Anyone who supports Israel is a target for terror. We, as a country, support Israel. We are a target for terror. We have been attacked. It is time to stop pussy footing around, and declare a real war. This is the history of man. It is either them, or us. I vote for us. But simplicity is frowned upon, and we have been brainwashed to think simplicity is wrong, faulty, illogical. That is not the case. We have been attacked, our citizens. You either are on our side, or you are on their side. There is no middle ground. We need to approach it in this manner. I don't think most folks really realize what is going on. We are insulated within our comfortable middle class lives. But, we will wake up when a nuclear bomb takes out one of our cities. It is just a matter of time. Trust me. You want to make our world safe? You know how to do it. Fedora

 

[Marlowe]

Originally posted by Fedora
I see the whole confict in the Middle East in very simple terms. The followers of Islam will never accept the Jewish folks living right in the middle of them. Just look at the antics of Arafat over the years, the last time being when Clinton was about to leave office. They plan to never accept it. Anathema folks. Anyone who supports Israel is a target for terror. We, as a country, support Israel. We are a target for terror. We have been attacked. It is time to stop pussy footing around, and declare a real war. This is the history of man. It is either them, or us. I vote for us. But simplicity is frowned upon, and we have been brainwashed to think simplicity is wrong, faulty, illogical. That is not the case. We have been attacked, our citizens. You either are on our side, or you are on their side. There is no middle ground. We need to approach it in this manner. I don't think most folks really realize what is going on. We are insulated within our comfortable middle class lives. But, we will wake up when a nuclear bomb takes out one of our cities. It is just a matter of time. Trust me. You want to make our world safe? You know how to do it. Fedora

Actually, the way it's supposed to work is that the Jews (or any others who are not Moslem) are free to live in Palestine, if Palestine becomes a nation-state again. It's just that only Moslems can have any say in law or government and everyone who is not Moslem will pay the taxes. That's how it was from the introduction of Islam to the region until the establishment of the state of Israel. At one time, that was just about the height of religious tolerance (since, at the time, religious dissenters elsewhere were simply eliminated). Nowadays it doesn't seem acceptable to those of us who were reared in Western-European-influenced societies.

Simplicity IS wrong, faulty, illogical. Otherwise pi would be equal to 3. On the other hand, if and when it comes down to us or them, I vote for us and to hell with them. I do not intend to argue that they are right and we are wrong. I DO intend to point out fact that appear to have been missed when I come across them, because I, too, think that most of us don't realize what is going on.

So, it's the "final solution" for them, eh? To take the attitude that "they" all need to be exterminated is criminal. I know a fair number of Palestinians and Americans of Palestinian descent. They are not all terrorists, you know. One of them is exactly like a brother to me, and I to him. I have found them to be about as admirable as anyone else, on average. They're not perfect, but neither am I. Neither are you. Come back from the Dark Side.

The real problem with the situation (in my estimation) is that two of the parties (Israel and the Palestinians) don't want to back down, and keep provoking each other. These decisions to provoke each other are made by persons who can make political capital out of successes against the other side OR reversals against their own side. (Like Hitler's own people burning the Reichstag.) They are playing their own games and dragging their entire peoples along into the trouble for their own benefit. Both the Israeli and Palestinian "leadership" are guilty of this, betimes. (Remind you of anything? Like the Spanish-American War, for instance?) The cynical attitudes of other Arab countries hasn't been all that altruistic, or even helpful, either. "Our poor fellow Arabs, ejected unceremoniously from their own homeland. Someone should do something for them, someone should take them in. Just not here in MY country."

Like it or not, it's a complicated mess. Perhaps simple solutions are required to cut through the Gordian Knot of the problem, but "I say we kill 'em all, and if you disagree you're a traitor at best!" isn't the solution I'd advocate.

 

[Fedora]

I understand. I just have always got the impression, over time, that the region has the attitude of not ever accepting the State of Israel. No matter what. All of the politics surrounding this is deceptive. Hidden agendas. Playing in the void. You(they) say one thing, and do another. My remarks, being unclear, were intended for the terrorists that are attacking this country. I say, take em' out, and any country that supports this activity, regardless of who they are. If need be, wipe the whole country off the face of the earth. Innocent folks killed, yes. That is the horrible thing about war. I think it is truly, a them or us scenerio. I could be wrong. Will we ever do it? Nope. No matter how many American citizens are lost in the future. Folks, the Islam religion has always been the most militant in recent times. I remember reading that way back in the 70's, way before any of this stuff started. Fedora

 

[Art Fawcett]

Fedora, I somewhat agree but with some caveats. First, just to be clear, this current mess has been going on since 1948 so it was already old by the 70s. (Don't you hate thinking of it in those terms?)) The first and formost caveat is that your suggestion has to be the final, final, final, answer. I see an ocean of posibilities before we HAVE to go there. I could only agree with that position if there was absolutely no other alternative and after innocents have been warned. I am assuming that that is your position also as I don't believe it would be yours or any sane Americans first strike option or even 5th.. I also assume that you are speaking of AFTER a nuke on this soil. Nuclear will never be an option as colateral damage would be too great and world opinion would turn so badly against us that those that don't get sick or die will surely come after us in like manner. There are just too many nukes unaccounted for from the Russians alone, nevermind India, Pakistan, China, N. Korea so we could count on retaliation of the worst kind. No, there has to be another solution out there. I actually think that Israel has a valid ( somewhat) operation in taking out the Hamas leadership until a leader emerges with less hatred and a vision of what Palestine COULD be. Or even the same hatred but more sanity in the long view.
Let's face it, there will never be a perfect solution so what we need to do is keep searching for middle ground, deal with honest men ( thats a toughie), and wipe out any smack of terrorism on THEIR land. Who was it that said "The best defence is a good offence?"

 

[Marlowe]

You know, my earlier post had to be cut short (!) because it was getting near time to go to work, and it didn't include everything that I wanted to say.

The other nations in the region, being Arab and predominantly Moslem, do not want to recognize Israel. People like bin Laden whine and bleat about the poor, downtrodden Palestinians and the corruption of Islam by the influence of the Great Satan, America--but what they're really after is a redistribution of power and wealth into their own hands. We've seen this before. (Remember Fidel Castro?)

The perpetrators of the attacks on the embassies in Kenya, the USS Cole and the World Trade Center deserve nothing more than than the extermination due any hydrophobic dog in the street. They have no more right to live than bacteria. THEM, yes! Hunt them down and kill them as efficiently as possible. I only wish I could be in on that. Let's just make certain that they and their ilk are the ONLY ones we get. Let's not turn into Nazis or Chekists over it.

 

[Fedora]

My post was made in a hurry this morning. I basically hate Arabs, and Islam. But not until we were attacked, and many of our innocent citizens murdered. All of this has been brewing for awhile, with much of Islam seeing the West and the US in particular as infidels. Satan incarnate. Now, are you gonna change their minds? Honestly? Are you going to change the world view of that culture? If you can change it, then by all means go ahead and do it. My feelings is that it can't be changed. They as a religion and culture have moved past the point of no return. Folks can bury their heads in the sand, eat lotus blossums and center their being on their navels, and what you will end up with is a dead lotus eater, with his head still in the sand, and very, very dead. I have no Palestinian friends. I may have an American friend of Palestinian descent, but that is not the same. If it is the same, then he is either not an American, or he is not a Palestinian. Simplicity. If you let complexity enter into that, you never get an answer that is logical, and that is what I meant by simplicity. I would have been foolish to refer to math or rocket science as simplistic. But we are not talking about rocket science here. We are talking about diverse cultures, and here simplicity not only is called for, it is essential. Sign language was created for communication between cultures before the complexity of language was learned. It served us well, and still does. So, I approach this terrorism, and the war against it, in very simple terms. They, hate us. They willingly give their own lives in suicide missions in order to kill us. They would have no qualms about killing you, your wife, your kids, your friends, etc, because you are all infidels, and Satan incarnate. We were attacked first. The fact that the culture of that area let these people thrive, and hide, tells me there are no innocent parties over there. Bin Laden is still on the loose, regular Islamists let this continue. I therefore have no qualms about killing all of them, women, children, and the dogs and cats too. Simplistic. Now, if you want to make it complex, as we all tend to do because we are amused by our own ability to create complex scenerios(it is entertaining and makes us seem rather intelligent), you can categorize those folks into different groups, and then paralysis sets in. In the meantime, we may lose New York, Washington, or other cities of this country. And, with time never staying still, and the stream never being the same, you can bet your tale the big bomb will happen. And we will possibly lose millions of innocent countrymen. If we could really grasp what is going on, our actions would be swift and decisive, and the hell with the rest of the world. They are not the ones being murdered in the name of Allah. So, if this is the dark side, I don't want any part of the light side. But, I know I am not of the dark side, so it does not bother me. The world would be a much better place without Islam. I say, kill every single one of them that does not offer an olive branch. That I would give them a choice shows who I am. Then, they could live in peace, and I would live in peace. Simplistic. Fedora

 

[Art Fawcett]

Gee Fedora, powerfull post..but how do you REALLY feel? )

 

[Fedora]

Yeah, I know Art. I stay in trouble when I leave the realm of hats. But, that is just me, for better or worse. I am a simple man. I see the world in black and white. I don't cotton to making non complex matters complex, and I don't trust those who do. I am straight forward, and never wring my hands and ask someone else the answers. I admire courage under fire, and basically feel that this country has lost its back bone along with moral courage. I think we have it too easy, with too much time on our hands to build complex little castles, while ingoring the obvious. It is a free country, and you can do that. I just despise it, that's all. I am the type of fellow that if someone breaks into my house, I assume he is up to harm,and have no qualms about killing him on the spot. Complexity has no place when something of this nature happens. You try to hurt me or my family, and if I have the means, I will kill you, and never lose a nights sleep in doing so. I will not try to negotiate. And that is the way that I would handle Islamic radicals, and whoever sheltered them. You may be surprised at how uncivilized we would become if Washington had a nuclear bomb detonated. I would hope so anyways. regards, Fedora

 

[Art Fawcett]

"You may be surprised at how uncivilized we would become if Washington had a nuclear bomb detonated. I would hope so anyways."
No Fedora, I wouldn't be. I would be also in that group looking for the button!!.

We are not very far off in views when it comes right down to it Fedora. Believe me, if it came to the deciding time, no problems protecting my family or my country. I just might lose some sleep over it though. I didn't lose anyone I knew on 9/11 but I was priviledged to have helped finish the South Tower in 1972 so I have a personal connection in that manner. I can't think of any state in this country that I have not been in and enjoyed the people tremendously. Well, ok,,maybe Alabama wouldn't be on my list to go back to. But the bottom line for me is that this is MY country, good bad or otherwise, it's still MY country. MY brothers and sisters were lost that day and I have a long memory as do others in the world. What I also think about though is how we got here and why. Let's face it Steve, as indivuals, there is very little you and i can do other than pontificate, study, try to understand and form our own opinions based on our own knowledge and personality. We all have our hot buttons and limits, with this country being one of mine. After reading your post, yours also. In many ways how we got here is unimportant when compared to what we are potentially facing. The key for me personally is that I don't WANT to see this violence, I don't WANT to see the bloody images of my children OR others. But, as my crazy ( I mean that literally) Aunt Bert used to say
"It isn't what you want that makes you fat, it's what you get"

 

[Fedora]

Yeah, we are on the same page Art, and I would not want to see those images either. I hate violence. I hate war. I also love this country and our people. I am still suffering for the folks who lost people in the 911 massacre. And I am angry. I worry for my kids, and my grandkids. I do know, that if I were the right age, I would enlist tomorrow. I did it in 1970, even as the peace activists marched. Nothing has change for me, in all of these years. Freedom is not an easy thing to keep. We, this country are in the minority when it comes to having freedom,and we have it because of the blood of our kith and kin. I am just afraid we have become soft, and don't have the courage. A nation falls from within. And it starts with attitudes. I am worried. But hopeful. regards, Steve

 

[Art Fawcett]

Fedora, As a nation I agree with you. But I am speaking politically. If you need proof as to our toughness, I urge you to just look at what our troops ( sons and daughters) have done in the last 2 years. It gives me hope for the future to see my fears not being realized daily.

 

[farnham54]

"Freedom isn't Free".

It's a tagline for a new computer game, but it's message is 100% correct.

Steve, I can see your point of view. However, I don't think I could stomach the idea of wiping out every single Arab becase of the actions of a few. Kill the useless scum who did it, no problem. Kill those who helped, no problem. And even kill those who think they had the right idea, no problem. Trouble is, not everyone in the region feels that way--those who do not live in fear of being turned up and killed as sympathizers to the Infidels or Zionists.

A very interesting thing happened to me a few weeks ago. On campus we have a chapel, with a chaplain who will minsiter to Jew, Christian, and Muslim the same way. Unaware of it, I went in during a Muslim-designated time (Jews and Christians have these times as well). I sat down in a pew. Kneeling in the Isle next to me was a Muslim man who I had seen around campus but never met. I said the Lord's prayer, as I always do. When I finished, he said to me "I noticed you were saying the Lord's prayer". I said "Yes, I was. I am Anglican". And he replied "Oh? but this is Muslim time now, this building is considered a Mosque". I told him I didn't know, and then said "Same god". Because basically it is; and we learned a lot of each others faith. Muslims recognize Jesus as a Prophet (not the son of god). The Koran states (in translations pre-1950) that "Jews and Christains, who may not be Muslim, are still worshipors of God and should be treated as neighbors".

Don't lie. Don't steal. Don't kill. These are principles that every man, of every faith can agree with, no? I found this young Muslim man, named Mohammed, to agree with these principles the same as I was.

The point is, he did not consider me to be "the Infadel". He was simply a practicing Muslim-devout, to be sure: he did not drink nor did he eat the meat of Pigs. But he, and now I, realized that all 3 major religions stem from the same basic belief in the same basic god. That is something that our cultures have in common, and in my opinion it is something absolutley huge. That is something I believe can be built upon through learning. We need to learn about them, and they need to learn about us. If there are some (and there are) who are unwilling to learn, kill 'em. Plain and simple. They are standing in the way of peace for everyone else.

Don't get me wrong, I absolutley hate anyone who takes innocent life in any way and I believe they should be punished EXTENSIVELY. With death. Nothing I hate more then those people who take innocent life. But not every Arab Muslim agrees with the 9/11 bombings. And if we wipe those people out in one fell swoop (or two or three, depending on the megatonnage) we are really no better then those spineless scumbags who flew the planes into the Towers on that horrible, horrible day.

Respectful Regards,

Craig

 

[havershaw]

Fedora,
A question: you mentioned (correct me if I'm wrong), that we should kill everybody who harbors these terrorists and the like. I'm with you there, but, my question is: how do we know who that is? If my neighbor harbors a terrorist, should you burn down my house because I live next to him and you just assume that the whole neighborhood harbors terrorists?
There's a lot of fear in that region, and I would argue that there's as much fear as there is hatred over there. It's not a well-to-do country, and we also need to keep in mind that political dissenters haven't fared particularly well over there. It's reasonable to assume that there are plenty of folks over there who would not harbor any terrorists or folks, who for the sake of brevity, I will further refer to as "bad guys." The government may be harboring bad guys...but hey, our government does a lot of things I don't particularly want it to do, too. I mean, I don't want them to kill me because they've lumped me in with all of the other Americans they feel have wronged them - because I've never wronged them. Conversely, in "killing them all," aren't we doing sort of the same thing? And you could say that the folks who don't agree with the majority in the region should get up and move. But like I said before, these are not particularly well-to-do countries. That's simply not an option for a lot of people, and let's face it, we've seen regimes eecute those who they feel to be "traitors" who "desert the cause" (in other words, they didn't particularly agree with the majority in the region, and they were killed trying to get out). For a lot of people, it's just too hard to face the fact that if they try to escape, they'll be killed.

I think there are certainly good Arabs and bad Arabs, just as there are good Americans and bad Americans. While I'll agree you don't see a lot of the "nice Arabs" in the media, I don't want to be judged by my ethnicity or birthplace, so I won't do it to someone else.

Now, that having been said...Fedora, you're right on a lot of counts. We're not going to turn their culture around or anything like that. We're not going to "make them see that we're really OK!" or change their mind about Americans, just like you weren't going to change the Nazis' minds about Jews. However, in your quest for simplicity, I think you may have overlooked one important point: I almost want to agree with your plan to "kill them all," except...well, you can't! I mean, there are going to be survivors, and you can bet that those folks are going to make it their mission in life (and these people excel at holding grudges for things far less heinous than the extermination of their people) to wreak a bloody revenge even more than before. And sure, we kill them, hopefully before they fly a plane into a nuclear plant, or crash a plane into a school. But then their children are taught to hate the people who killed their fathers, and now they have a revenge mission...it goes on and on. You can't kill them all. I hate to say it, as anti-war and anti-violence as I am, but I have considered the "kill them all option," because honestly, as long as that region and those people are on this earth, they are going to be a problem, primarily for and toward America. We will always be worried (I will, anyway) about when and if they are coming to kill me, my family, my friends. But like I said, you can't kill them all. And try it and see what kind of vengeance that throws our way. They already have some reasonably flimsy excuses for hating all of us. Wait until we're tried to wipe out their people. Even if you killed 90% of them (not easy to do), it's just creating more hatred, and we all live in fear that we missed some of them (which is vitrually a certainty, as some of them undoubtedly live here as well). And anyway, you can't just kill everyone of Arab descent, which is not what I think you're proposing...but then, how would we go about "killing them all"? Sorry, but it does seem...well...complicated to me!

As far as defending my family and friends go, I too would do what I had to do to keep us all safe. But I would certainly feel bad about it - at least, bad about the fact that I was forced to take such an action. I don't want to resort to violence for any reason, and I would be furious and sad that I had been made to - but it doesn't mean I wouldn't.

I do get sort of angry that those people have put me in the position where I would even think about the "kill them all" option and say, "well, maybe it is the only way," because I've never even been in a fistfight. I hate violence. But I mean...what can be done? I don't think the "kill them all" plan is really an option (as it's kind of impossible in all practicality), but they're not going to sit down and chat with us to try to work things out. So as I see it...um, kind of complex. I don't know if there is a solution, other than to just sort of keep putting bandaids on a wounded arm that's not going to heal. (And I don't think cutting the arm off will help. Then you've got to put bandaids on that wound - which is a lot bigger wound, and bandaids are a lot less effective at that point.)

 

[Marlowe]

I'm thinking maybe the media are much to blame. We hardly ever see or hear of the vast majority of Arabs (Moslem or not) who just want to get through their lives without a lot of violence, poverty, hate, oppression, famine, disease or war. The huge, vast majority of them may not think that the United States is God's own favorite nation, but neither do they particularly want to wipe us all from the face of the earth. They just want to live their lives without having to hassle anybody and without having anybody hassle them.

Of course, there are those individuals who do not take this view. Either because they are Wahabbists (spelling?), or feel unfairly downtrodden, or just psychopathic, they are not content to live and let live. These people occur in all cultures and religions. Due to the nature of the problems in the Middle East, some of these people have managed to--or been allowed to--flourish. And not just by fundamentalist Moslems, either. Remember how, previously, both the Taliban and Saddam Hussein were allies of the United States?

One thing that bothers me: when people call the 9-11 highjackers "cowardly" or "spineless." These are men who had the courage and determination to strike blows for their cause by flying airplanes into buildings, certain death. One group, I believe, flew the plane they had highjacked into the ground short of their target rather than let it fall back into the hands of the rest of the passengers and crew. This behavior does not, to me, meet the definition of "cowardly." Rather, I would call it "valor." While I find valor admirable, the cause which their valor served I do not. Others had attacked the World Trade Center by parking a truck full of explosives in it and leaving. That was more cowardly. Likewise the Oklahoma City bombing. I think that demonizing and dehumanizing and refusing to recognize the quality of your opponent is a grave mistake. (The Japanese government made that error in the early 1940's.) It is necessary to face facts and "give the Devil his due." That's the way to get a better measure of your enemy, giving a better chance of defeating him.

 

[Art Fawcett]

"give the Devil his due."

Good point Marlowe,
I have often thought of these thugs as brave but in a twisted form. However, the news came out that most of them thought they were doing a simple ( boy is THAT the wrong word) highjacking. That info came from bin Laden himself so as I see it you basically can say that about 4 of the men, not all of them. I also see bravery in the attempted re-taking of the plane over Pennsylvania on the part of the passengers so that's where I chose to focus.
Bottom line, we are facing a real, clever, ruthless enemy and this country needs the REAL information, see the REAL bodies and blood, to see our people jumping off the towers with no other option in their mind. Only then will this country wake up.
Just WHO decides what we can see and what we can't? I had to go to the net to see what they did to our people ( hanging the bodies from the bridge). Just WHO is so arragant and all powerful to tell us what we are too sensitive to see? Until we see the actual damage the weak in this country will not see the truth and never get onboard with the truth.

 

[MK]

I too think the "coward" label is not right. They were very determined and had much courage......to commit evil, wicked cold-blooded atrocities against innocent people.

One thing that we have concluded in this discussion is that the problems are big, complex and have no easy answers. This job is for someone who is willing to make hard decisions and won't wimp out when the going gets tough (and it will). Someone won't stop until the job is done. (unlike Spain who rewards terrorist. Being next to France has been a bad influence for them.)

I think regardless of whether we think that the plan......from what little we really hear of it.....is the best plan or not, I think we can agree that this President is bearing the burden and doing the job of crushing our enimies in Afghanistan and Iraq and sending a crystal clear message to those want to kill us that if you try.......like Robin Williams said in Goodwill Hunting:

"I will end you".

He is taking the hits and staying the course. Those asking for an apology should be ashamed to try and knock him for protecting our country.

 

[Renderking Fisk]

I think Bubba needs to give the Unites States an Apology for spending more time with his flesh humidor and not enough time doing his job.

He had the chance to nab Osama 4 times, and he blew it cause he didn't want to ruin his popularity.

 

[Fedora]

Havershaw, I am thinking, thinking....................... new ground for my simplistic mind. Fedora