Any Do's & Don'ts in military clothing?

[ButteMT61]

What if some of those "bums" or members of the Occupy Wallstreet movement are vets?

What if they are?
Timothy McVeigh was a vet.
Major Nidal Malik Hasan killed fellow soldiers at Ft Hood.
Being a Vet isn't a free pass. It doesn't make someone good or bad. It's one's character that does that. I have a family of Vet's.

 

[guygardner]

What if they are?
Timothy McVeigh was a vet.
Major Nidal Malik Hasan killed fellow soldiers at Ft Hood.
Being a Vet isn't a free pass. It doesn't make someone good or bad. It's one's character that does that. I have a family of Vet's.

What are you talking about? What does Occupy Wall Street or being homeless have to do with being a murderer or a terrorist?

By the way, my point was, what if those people wearing insignia had earned them? How sure are you that those "bums" didn't serve their country?

 

[ButteMT61]

What are you talking about? What does Occupy Wall Street or being homeless have to do with being a murderer or a terrorist? By the way, my point was, what if those people wearing insignia had earned them? How sure are you that those "bums" didn't serve their country?

1) Your initial "point" was very unclear.
2) In case you haven't followed the #occupy folks, there have been some serious crimes committed within the groups. OD's, rape, shootings, and I believe at leas tone murder - not to mention the property-based crimes. I don't care if someone served their country if they go out and break the law - that's my point. Don't question my respect for the military or it's members.
I don't respect the #occupy movement or it's members. And that's too bad as I was hoping it would be a positive force.

 

[guygardner]

1) Your initial "point" was very unclear.
2) In case you haven't followed the #occupy folks, there have been some serious crimes committed within the groups. OD's, rape, shootings, and I believe at leas tone murder - not to mention the property-based crimes. I don't care if someone served their country if they go out and break the law - that's my point. Don't question my respect for the military or it's members.
I don't respect the #occupy movement or it's members. And that's too bad as I was hoping it would be a positive force.

I was questioning whether you believed the homeless or the members of the occupy movement wearing insignia were all "fake" vets, or whether you were saying they no longer had a right to wear their insignia because of their social status or politics?

By the way, any thug can wander over to a protest, commit a crime, and discredit a movement. Anyone can infiltrate a movement. It's especially difficult for a movement like Occupy Wall Street when their opponents have an army of corporate PR disguised as journalists. Actually, many of these people also share a nostalgia for a time when the middle class was growing instead of being snuffed out. A lot of them would rather be employed, but no one is hiring.

 

[2jakes]

In the 80's , my first "bomber " jacket was a mall repro with the CBI patch on the sleeves. A former Flying Tiger vet. was sort of annoyed
that the patch was on the wrong sleeve. I was too ignorant to know better.
I'm a vietnam vet, '65 to '69. I wear my army field jacket when I'm in the mood to ride my bike. I really don't think about anybody else or
what they think.
But I understand about some things that can be negative. I have an original horn to my bike with a symbol that looks like a nazi swastika,
but it is actually an indian symbol . I don't use it because some folks wouldn't understand .

 

[Edward]

As an aside, I regularly visit my local Hindu Temple and above the stunning figures of Gods and Goddesses are flags with the 'Swastika' on, of course the religion had that symbol several thousand years before the Nazis briefly hijacked it and sadly tarnished it for ever.

I have photographs somewhere of Hindu shrines in Bangalore, covered in Swastikas. Certainly messed with my head. It is fascinating to see that symbol crop up as an ancient symbol and part of certain cultures (Asian, Native American, etc) which could not possibly have encountered each other - at least not since some time around the dawn of homo sapien, however many million years ago. The Nazis weren't the first to adopt it in Twentieth Century Europe - it was already in use by some other minority party in Austria when they co-opted it onto their flag. I don't believe the Nazis gave it any specific meaning other than "a cool symbol to rally behind" (not that I can remember, anyhow). They certainly ruined it for everyone in Europe... elsewhere, I don't know. It doesn't seem to have taken over as the dominant meaning of the symbol in India, for instance. I can understand how Hindus in Europe must feel, though - I know I've been greatly concerned about the co-option of the cross by various groups in recent years, though thankfully they certainly have yet to have gone entirely down the Nazi route.

I was at a gun show once and saw someone dressed in an SS uniform. Now re-enactors or what have you in SS uniform at a gun show or other events normally does not faze me (even the "what have you" category) but this particular individual did because on closer examination I noticed that the piping on his shoulder straps, which denoted arm of service, were brown. Brown was the "waffenfarben" of the concentration camp guards.

That's a big step creepier than the black SS uniform. I find it even more worrying that someone like that might be entitled to own a gun.

 

[Doctor Damage]

By the way, any thug can wander over to a protest, commit a crime, and discredit a movement. Anyone can infiltrate a movement. It's especially difficult for a movement like Occupy Wall Street when their opponents have an army of corporate PR disguised as journalists.

Good point. I'm glad you made it.

It is fascinating to see that symbol crop up as an ancient symbol and part of certain cultures (Asian, Native American, etc) which could not possibly have encountered each other - at least not since some time around the dawn of homo sapien, however many million years ago.

Regarding swastikas, they were also worn on Byzantine (late Roman) uniforms, etc. and in medieval Europe. It's kind of funny how certain images stick in our mind and are irrevocably associated with certain things. We've been brainwashed with swastikas. We're right to abhor the Nazi movement, etc., but we've still been brainwashed to 100% associate swastikas with Nazis and "evil" more generally. It's almost cartoonish. That being said, I don't think any WW2 re-enactor should use swastikas without careful consideration, but then I don't think Medieval warfare re-enactors should be putting rubber human heads covered in red paint on sticks, or pulling fake skin off dummies, to depict the Mongols or something.

Anyway, like many guys here I had my surplus store phase. I have no probs wearing uniform items, but never with badges and never more than one item at a time. As someone said, the U.S. military sells gear off to civilians so they obviously don't care much about people wearing odds and ends. I remember that after the end of WW2 men were being criticized for wearing the Ike suits in a civilian context, but then the war was very recent and they were wearing the whole suit, not just the pants or something. It's a fine line but I think most people can walk the line okay. The nuts will always be nuts, though!

 

[rocketeer]

Heres something that goes with civvy wear and especially military wear. Always remove your hat in a dance hall or mess type thing. And dont dance in a crusher or trilby/snap brim/ fedora, it was never the done thing.
Sorry if this has been pointed out I have not read every answer.

 

[Phantomfixer]

rocketeer

Spent 22 years in USAF. The hat thing I thought was enforced back in WWII, recently I found a photo of Dover Army Air Field, the photo is of the mess hall, alot of guys are wearing hats. Cool photo as it has A-2s with the decal on some D-1s/B-6s, the hat thing botherd me though. A stateside base should have enforced such rules.....

 

[Otter]

Wearing a hat in our mess was always resulted in a fine of a round of drinks for all in the mess, paid for by the offender.

 

[V.C. Brunswick]

Regarding swastikas, they were also worn on Byzantine (late Roman) uniforms, etc. and in medieval Europe. It's kind of funny how certain images stick in our mind and are irrevocably associated with certain things. We've been brainwashed with swastikas. We're right to abhor the Nazi movement, etc., but we've still been brainwashed to 100% associate swastikas with Nazis and "evil" more generally. It's almost cartoonish.

From 1920 to 1939 the shoulder patch of the US 45th Infantry Division, part of the Oklahoma National Guard, had a swastika, the Native American symbol of good luck, in honor of the state's Native American heritage. By 1939 when the swastika became more and more associated with Nazism it was replaced by the thunderbird (also a Native American good luck symbol) which was proudly worn by members of the division during WWII and the Korean War.

It's sad that the PC movement (particularly in Europe) believes that by banning certain symbols that the realities of history can be made to go away like a bad dream. It reminds me a bit of Orwell's 1984 where the story's protagonist Winston Smith is initially employed by the Ministry of Truth as a "historian" whose job is to alter or expunge historic documents to fit the current party line. In an interesting parallel to today's pop and media culture, Big Brother's Ministry of Truth, in addition to propaganda, also produced porn, strictly for consumption of the "proles," non party members who were the vast majority of the populace.

I remember that after the end of WW2 men were being criticized for wearing the Ike suits in a civilian context, but then the war was very recent and they were wearing the whole suit, not just the pants or something.

An almost ubiquitous sight in postwar Europe were the "overcoat men," demobbed ex-soldiers wearing their old army issue greatcoats minus insignia because their prewar civilian clothes either no longer fit or was lost. And, of course, in the postwar environment new clothes were hard to find and/or expensive. As part of my vintage wardrobe I'm looking for an "army surplus" M1941 field jacket which is very civilian-looking. They were even sold by Sears after the war.

 

[Doctor Damage]

^ That's very interesting about the 45th Division patch. I'm amazed they held on to the design as late as 1939, but then they wouldn't have wanted to give an inch if at all possible. Also interesting is the de-mob men comment. On a related note, British officers were of course entitled to wear riding breeches and riding boots during WW2, but most didn't because of the unfortunate association with fascist military and para-military officers in the 1930s.

Regarding political correctness: I don't think people try to ban symbols (or words) because they want to erase history, but rather because they don't want to offend people who are supposedly victims of something or other. I think it's telling that the most public and energetic criticisms of political correctness are usually advanced by radicals and extremists, although I hasten to add "not always". In any case, the editing and re-writing of history is pursued just as vigorously by the right as it is by the left, and even the centre. Nobody who has acquired power, whether whiny liberal, outraged conservative, or compromising centrist, really wants to relinquish it or endanger it, and everyone knows that propoganda has always been one of the most reliable tools every politician or leader keeps in his or her political toolkit.

But to get back to the main theme of this thread, has anyone here run up against just plain ignorance? I don't mean in a serious way, or critcims from vets or whoever, but just people who aren't familiar with military surplus clothing (how they aren't familiar is beyond me, but that's another topic). I have a vintage Swedish army greatcoat which people used to think was some sort of Russian or WW2 German coat, but of course it's nothing of the sort (and kept me warm during some pretty cold days during my university days). I think age has something to do with something being acceptable or not in public. That greatcoat looks not unlike a civilian overcoat, more or less. On the other hand, I have an East German officer's winter jacket in raindrop camo which could never be mistaken for a funky civilian coat.

 

[John in Covina]

Now, there I really do have to draw a line. No grown man has any business wearing short trousers, for any reason.

What about the British Army in Africa?

 

[Edward]

^ That's very interesting about the 45th Division patch. I'm amazed they held on to the design as late as 1939, but then they wouldn't have wanted to give an inch if at all possible.

In context of the times, though, the US was not at war with Nazi Germany until 1942, really, and it was, if memory serves, only around then that the original salute given during the Pledge of Allegiance which strongly resembled the Nazi salute was dropped for that reason.

What about the British Army in Africa?

Not even them. Actually, I'm not up on current uniforms, but I should have hoped that they had stopped that lnog ago by now, knowing what we do these days re the harmful effects of exposing the skin to the sun.

 

[Phantomfixer]

DR Damage,
I was hiking the Appalachian Trail over the winter with my son. We both were wearing USGI goretex jackets, guy asked me if we were hunting.... in a demanding manner ah no....

 

[Italian-wiseguy]

It's sad that the PC movement (particularly in Europe) believes that by banning certain symbols that the realities of history can be made to go away like a bad dream.

Ironically, at least here in Italy the whole "political correctness" stuff is believed to be an american thing... I don't know.

A part from the PC movement, there's a real ban, by law, on symbols belonging to the past Fascist and Nazist party; I know that in Germany, where they take the matter quite seriously, there was a case regarding leather buttons of a coat, that, seen from a certain angle, should have remainded the design of the swastika, and so they were banned...
also some cloth bags produced in India, to which an indian maker obliviously applied a swastika (btw evidently different from the nazi one, and even reversed) as a symbol of good luck...

on the other hand, the ban is ineffective against its real targets, as neonazi groups simply invented new symbols...

 

[MisterCairo]

Shorts on men are definitely territory that has to be tread on lightly. Very few men can pull off shorts, but most try. If you haven't seen the sun or gym in over five years, chances are you should rethink the shorts and just be hot. Even worse than shorts are flip flops and sandals on big ugly hairy men feet.

My leg hair can practically be braided. Not something anyone, particularly ladies or children, needs to see!

 

[MisterCairo]

What about the British Army in Africa?

British Army in Iraq 1942:

 

[MisterCairo]

Off topic, but on the topic of the swastika's historically-based meaning, here's a well known building in Ladysmith, British Columbia on Vancouver Island (famous for being the hometown of Pamela Anderson). Note the decorative brickwork:

 

[ButteMT61]

We tore an old oil-furnace under our house (Circa 1906) And the brass valves have Swazi's on them. We kept them as they're pretty darn cool - but of course they're not on the coffee table...it's an old design, and sadly, it has some to represent the worst of humankind. But only PC thin-skins and those not willing to learn balk at the sight of it without any care of what it is...or was.