Any difference between normal and front quarter horsehide?

[Faisalha9159]

I was wondering if anyone could throw any light on the differences between regular horsehide and front quarter horsehide.

How do the two compare side by side in terms of looks and wear?

 

[Peacoat]

It is my understanding the FQ is thicker, but I have no first hand experience after it has come off of the horse. While still attached to the horse, I can't tell any difference either visually, or by feel.

 

[jacketquest]

My limited understanding is that front quarter HH is just what it says, namely that it comes from the front quarters of the horse. Apparently this is the more desirable part of the hide in terms of leather quality and consistency. Shell cordovan, for example, comes from this part of the hide.

 

[Fletch]

According to Allen-Edmonds,

The shell is the subcutaneous layer that covers the posterior (rear end) and is the only leather that will not wrinkle and is inherently water-resistant.

Now either someone's a little confused here or A-E is getting its cordovan from the south ends of northbound horses! lol

 

[jacketquest]

ooops, my mistake. A-E would certainly know this.

 

[Alan Eardley]

Surely any leather that is 'inherently water resistant' would be incapable of being tanned! Cordovan is from the crup (rear flanks) of a horse.

Cordovan shells are too small to use in jacket manufacture, but are the premium leather for shoes. They are prized for their durability and 'stretch' - they take and maintain a shape over a last more evenly than other 'cuts' of leather for a given thickness *. Front quarter cuts have almost the same properties and is larger, so thay can be used in clothing manufacture.

* Source: Vass, L. & Molnar, M. (1999) Handmade Shoes for Men. Konemann, Koln.

 

[HungaryTom]

Short answer & long story

Dear Faisalha,

SHORT ANSWER:
If you want to know this exactly pls. contact Horween from Chicago/Illinois. www.horween.com. Stick around on their site. If you want to contact the guy in charge: skip@horween.com. They supply at least 2 jacket-makers (Aero Leather, Lost Worlds) popular at Fedora Lounge members with Chrome tanned front quarter horsehides.

Horween (est. in 1905) are the experts in horsehide tanning worldwide, seem to be the sole horse-hide focuser on the global tannery market. Besides other leathers they deliver front quarter horsehide used for tailoring high-end motoring and flight jackets and the sought after vegetable tanned “Genuine Shell Cordovan” as legendary shoe upper leather for all shoemakers worldwide.

WARNING: If you don’t have time, don’t read further, lot of stuff on tannery & leather follows… This is not an expert opinion, pls. correct me if I am wrong- I am telling only second hand info, from shoemakers, leather artisans I met and info from books, websites and articles from the web.

TANNING
Hides as organic stuff tend to rot away if not prepared.
Once the moisture is removed from the hide (less than 12%) the raw hide w. hairs on will not rot away but the collagen fibers glue together and the leather becomes un-flexible like an armor.
The fur must be removed from leather, leather must be prepared, tanned, and then finished.
There are 2 two age-old tanning methods:
#1 VEGETABLE tanning -put hides in 2-5 meters deep ditches w. tree barks oaks, mimosa, etc. and fill it up w. water. 1st they use less concentrated i.e. less adstringent solutions; than they move leathers into more concentrated ones to close the pores in a way that they breathe but are still water resistant. Leathers hang around this way for 5-6 months. This method is used for horse-butts to get the Shell cordovan and for the thick steer necks (also front- quarters) as shoe sole leather (Rendenbach/Trier/Germany). http://lederfabrik-rendenbach.de/index_gb.html
See also the hand-dyed “avancorpo” leather from Florence/Italy. http://www.laruota.it/ingindex.htm
Horween's Shell cordovan gets painted on the inside like velours leather. Isadore Horween came form the Ukraine. He arrived to the US just in time, - so his traditional recipe was saved from the revolution in 1905, from WWI, the Russian revolution 1917-23, Stalins terror/Holodor, WWII, Communism etc…Another Russian tanning recipe, called “Juchtenleder” which used birch trees was less lucky; the original recipe got lost during the aforementioned events. BUT in the 18th century the ship “Metta Catharina” coming from St. Petersburg loaded w. this leather sink at Plymouth and a part of the load got rescued fetching astronomical prices. Such hides were used for the boots of the Cossacks, leathers tanned w. similar technology are used for the very robust mountaineering boots. Check the websites of Gronell/Italy http://www.gronell.it/gb/index2.htm, Steinkogler/Austria http://www.steinkogler-bergschuh.at/etc…
#2 MINERAL tanning use salts, earlier this was alaun. Chrom-tanning was invented by Friedrich L. Knapp in 1858: using chromium salt: KCr(SO4)2•12H2O. Following the tanning in huge drums, which are slowly turning for 48 hours, hides are tanned this way are wet and have blue colors. “Drum-dyed wet blue”. Horween’s front quarter horse-hides are also tanned this way. Now you know why: this saves time.
Modern clothing industry uses chrome tanning of all kind of hides for the same reasons.
The alaun tanned thin and very flexible goatskins “Moroccan leathers” and “Cordovans” painted w. intense colors and are ideal for bookbinding.

RAW MATERIAL
The selection of the raw material is also important. Horween works with the hides of heavy 'Coldblood' horse races: Shires, Percherons when it comes to Shell cordovan. They don’t seem to accept the gracile Arabian race or their derivative horse races or the still abundantly available Mongolian Ponys (thinner hides?). Since Horween use these robust horses w. thick hides the hind part provides the thick shell cordovan (shell: the shape of the two butts looks like the shell of a mussel http://www.horween.com/photogallery2.html) and “front quarter” the thick and heavy horsehide, thicker than “ordinary” horsehides...
Other tanners work preferably with the much more readily available steer-hide, calf-skin (plain and shiny box-calf, or a print-on scotch-grain pattern for shoe upper leathers) sheepskin, goatskin, water buffalo calf etc. Horses became rare w. motorization and if other tanners buy their hides they don’t make this selection. Another: any hide can be split to a thickness the manufacturer selects. This gives two hides with double surface but a much lesser quality. Also: extensively “outdoor” raised cattle http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highland_cattle have a higher quality of hides (more robust) than intensely “indoor” raised ones http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holstein_Friesian. Same should be valid for horses, although they don't breed horses for hides.With horses they use slaughtered 'old' horses, although the hides of baby animals are more flexible, like baby calf or buffalo calf.

LEATHER FINISH
Leathers were made w. shiny surface finish in the early 20th century (using fats, dyes, oils, lacquers, etc. to give max. resistance and waterproof quality). Tanners and buyers did not care about the “antique look”. Since these jackets were expensive each man had 1 for the life-time and the “character” developed itself anyway with time, use and abrasion…
. This is naturally a question what (horsehide) jacket one would like (my opinion naturally):
• Old jackets. They are authentic, originals, have history, character and wear. They are always second-hand at least. Nice specimens are extremely expensive and they come mostly only in small and medium size (men were slimmer and smaller than today, cockpits weren’t built for basketball players or wrestlers). You can buy them at flea markets or original WWII jackets.
• New jackets: utility, for quality focusers. Right raw materials right manufacturing quality. Classic patterns. They look new they are new and have the value of a lifetime use if you care for them (leather balsam, etc). They develop character w. age.
• Replica new jackets: Blends of vegetable tanning and chrome tanning, preparations of the grainy surface, painting and repainting, stressing etc. to get the “antique look”. Instant gratification. The goal here is that the new repro should look like as the old original as much as possible. Quality depends on the manufacturer and the skill of the leather manufacturer.

SUMMARY:
If it comes to horsehide; Horween gets you heavy, resistant quality of horsehides – consistently. AeroLeather, Lost Worlds work with this hide. Horsehides from other tanners are a “lottery”…

Links:

Manufacture of leathers
http://www.lamparter-ortho.com/artikel.php Text in German but w. photos also from Horwen, and Manufacture photos

Russian Leather:
http://www.newandlingwood.com/information.phtml

 

[Technonut]

Thanks for the info and links HungaryTom ... Very informative.

 

[Faisalha9159]

Nice one mate. Answer appreciated.

 

[PADDY]

About 7.62mm full metal jacket

YES SIREEE, that FQHH is built to stop bullets in their tracks. It's like body armour, you feel like a modern day Knight out to rescue 'that' damsel in distress!! And the great thing is that with wear it moulds to 'your' body and gains the most marvellous patina and character, like an old trusted friend.

 

[scotrace]

Does it ever soften though? The one FQ jacket I saw was extremely stiff. That's fine - if it will over time become soft enough to not have the collars jutting into your chin when you sit.
I love how "regular" horsehide is like clay in a year or so. Drapey and soft, yet quite tough. Amazing stuff.
An Aero half belt in softer horsehide and with a movement-allowing lining would be the right ticket, I think.

 

[patterson]

The FQHH jacket I've owned do tend to soften with time, and are honestly quite beautiful examples of distinctive grain and patina in how they age... Getting there can be a challange and a little frustrating at times. I had Aero make me a private label A2 in FQHH. Now, the A2 is not the best design for this, but I wanted something distinctive? I tried for months to get the thing to "give" a little, and each time I wore it I'd end up with nasty bruises on my biceps. Finally I actually ran it through the washing machine with warm water and very mild detergent. I allowed it to air dry about 95% of the way, then applied Pecards and wore it all day on a 65 degree day. I smelled like FQHH for a few days, but the jacket looked and felt phenominal... Not something I'd warrant any jacket could handle, but I was fed-up. I've used the same technique on lesser jackets made of that vulcanized-like goatskin you sometimes get from US Wings or Avirex... You might need a shot of the hair-of-the-dog-that-bit-you before doing it...

 

[DJS Press]

I don't know. My Highwayman in FQHH is the first horsehide jacket I've ever owned, or even worn, but it's about 3 months old now and I'm very pleased with the break-in thus far. It was stiff as cardboard when I got it, but wearing it in the rain and any and all other conditions had really softened it up.

Like some others, I also call it my "suit of armor". I'm even wearing it as I write this. I guess my point is some people on this forum say that they've owned FQHH jackets for years and they still aren't broken-in or really comfortable. Maybe it's the thickness of the hide, or the manufacturer, but an Aero Highwayman seems to be about as tough as they come, and after 3 months I would definitely say it's very comfortable to wear.

Is it as soft as a lambskin or goat jacket? No way. But I didn't want that. I like that the break-in process of FQHH is ongoing and practically endless.

Since I've been visiting this forum it's become more apparent to me that the average consumer wouldn't know a good quality jacket if it bit them. The seemingly endless tide of cheap mall jackets, mostly made in China, Pakistan, or India, has set the bar for expectations, which unfortunately is low.

Sure, we pay more for these "expensive" jackets, but let's see how many mall jackets will last as long. A good-fitting FQHH jacket is still the most economical way to go in the long run.

 

[HungaryTom]

Too poor to afford cheap things…

FQHH is expensive, since good horsehide is rare: Horween makes them from natural death old exemplars of rare coldblood horses w. large hides‚ĶHorween splits the horsehides in the old-fashioned way that they are thick and are a pain to be tailored‚Ķmy befriended shoemaker confirmed this‚ĶSkip H. told in an interview that Horween used to tan 250.000 in their glory days now their output is down to 40.-50.000 horsehides/year. Horween operates in Chicago‚Ķthey still kept the old factory fa?ßade‚ĶAero Leather works in Galashiels/Scotland and Lost Worlds in New York‚Ķthese folks didn‚Äôt outsource‚Ķthey didn‚Äôt follow the times‚Ķthese stubborn entrepreneurs still employ local workers paying them salaries‚Ķand don‚Äôt rely on 3rd world modern-slavery work...what a misbehavior‚Ķwhat about shareholder value‚Ķwhat about competitive prices?
And these two jacket makers…they write that their FQHH is heavy, stiff and rigid…they openly admit that their stuff is 2nd rate when they think its 2nd rate…and offer them at sales prices…and put the “very expensive” prices only on their flawless jackets…instead of simply writing “genuine leather” and offering everything for the full-price…what an “ineffective” marketing!

RESULT OF ALL THIS OLD-FASHIONED STUFF:
Leather enthusiasts from all around the world value Horween’s horsehides. High-end shoemakers queue for the rare colors w. Shell Cordovans. These thick shells shine after all the smearing, have longevity and result in iridescence of whatever hand painted colors on the inner side of the hide due to the unique structure of collagen fibers to be found only on horse-butts…this gives the unmistakable color reflexes of the deeper shades when the sun shines on them…Shoemakers from around the world made so many “thank-you” shoes that Skip stores them rather in his office to avoid family fight at home w. his wife…
What about front parts of the same hides, FQHH? Tanned in a different way and painted on their outside? FL members voluntarily take their time to sing penchants about Aero Leather and Lost Worlds FQHH jackets…although you won’t find these medium company’s tickers running on NYSE.

Who complain about expensive prices, spent most probably a lot more for the constant upgrading of “essential” electronic gimmicks, and all kind of high-tech stuff that is absolutely not so high-tech…becoming outdated after 6 months…pls. recommend ANY PC/laptop/mobile/monitor/OS/SW that gets better w. the years/decades…for FQHH jackets and Shell Cordovan shoes age is not a problem.

 

[HungaryTom]

Articles on Horween not to be at their press room

English:
http://www.boston.com/news/nation/a...ion_for_leather_has_made_cowhides_a_hot_item/

Good article in German with Horween:
http://www.wiwo.de/pswiwo/fn/ww2/sf...01d08a7c7a3162fe968794fdae/depot/0/index.html

Photo Gallery of the same German article on Horween, nice photos:
http://www.wiwo.de/pswiwo/fn/ww2/sfn/buildww/id/2419/SH/0/depot/0/index.html

 

[petng]

From my experience wit 3 Lost worlds FQHH jackets and 1 AERO normal HH A2 jacket, the difference is that the FQ stuff is so stiff and hard to break in. The FQ also squeaks all the time when you move. The LW jackets are also a lot thicker and heavier as well.

When I received my Aero, I thought I got ripped off and got cowhide or lambskin., so soft and manageable was the jacket. It also was a lot lighter in weight.

In terms of grain the FQHH has more grain and character. However i have heard that Aero Jerky HH has great grain as well.

 

[jamespibworth@n]

HungaryTom,

Thanks for sharing all that information. Much appreciated.

James