And You Wonder Why I'm a Cynic...

[Senator Jack]

And then there was the time a state trooper came up behind me and flashed his light. I pulled over, wondering why he was after me and not the drivers zooming past at 80 m.p.h. As he got out of the patrol car, I took out my license. 'Did I do something wrong, officer?'

'Huh? Oh, no,' he says. 'I want to buy an old Mustang and I was wondering if you can tell me what to look out for.'

I spent the next twenty minutes with him on the side of the parkway telling him to beware of rotten floorpans, firewalls, poorly converted sixes, twisted frames, etc.

 

[Lincsong]

What really sticks in so many people's throats in the Northeast, Chicago and West Coasts is that for too long in the last part of the 19th Century and most of the 20th Century was that the Police and Fire Departments were run on the "Family" plan where in order to make the force you had to be related to someone there; brother, brother-in-law, son, cousin, married to someone's cousin etc. Sure there was the token non-related member for window display but for the most part the big City Departments were off limits. It's not like that today, but many people still know of an older member of their family or friends who wanted to make the Department but he didn't have the right connections or bloodline.

Then there's prima donna's like former Alameda County Sheriff Charlie Plummer who bought two Navy surplus boats with machine guns that have a one mile range in order to "protect" the county from terrorist attacks. Yeah, like terrorists are going to launch an amphibious attack.:rage: To make matters worse, this clown had; floor mats made with his name on them, put his son in a $112,000 a year position as head of Homeland Security saying that the son was the most qualified applicant and "$112,000 isn't a lot of money, a leutenent makes more".:rage:

Add into that (here in California) that whenever there is a tax cut proposal or any type of reform the cops and firemen are right there front and center knocking on doors, flashing their badges and telling people "oh lives will be lost" "criminals will run rampant" when in actuality all they're concerned about is protecting their $100,000 plus per year gravy train and 25 year and out pension where they can retire at 80% of the average of their last five years pay with a COLA (usually 3%) for the rest of their lives. So some schmuck can retire at 48 years old and us taxpayers are stuck paying him $80,000, $100,000 or more per year for the next 30-40 years!!!!!

That's why whenever I get a flier saying that "Manuel Silva is supported by Fire and Police" I'll vote for his opponent because I know that support is only because Manuel got that support by promising the biggest pay package, not due to his dedication to fighting crime.

Now to look at it in another way, Policemen deal with liars and cheats all the time. Then they have to deal with District Attorney's who won't prosecute the cases/arrests that Policemen make so there is a lot of frustration on their part to do good policework.

 

[Johnnysan]

Add into that (here in California) that whenever there is a tax cut proposal or any type of reform the cops and firemen are right there front and center knocking on doors, flashing their badges and telling people "oh lives will be lost" "criminals will run rampant" when in actuality all they're concerned about is protecting their $100,000 plus per year gravy train and 25 year and out pension where they can retire at 80% of the average of their last five years pay with a COLA (usually 3%) for the rest of their lives. So some schmuck can retire at 48 years old and us taxpayers are stuck paying him $80,000, $100,000 or more per year for the next 30-40 years!!!!!

I understand that mileage varies according to location, but according to the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics, local police officers earned an average yearly salary of $48,120 in 2006. State police officers earned $52,930.

The claim of "exorbitant pensions" has long been used as an excuse to attack the "excesses of government", but the truth is, that for the average police officer (or public employee, for that matter), the average pension is nowhere near as generous as the $80-100K that you cite.

It's a rare situation to find senior rank-and-file officers making $100-125K/year. Does it happen - sure it does. But it is not the case across the board.

Our local officers make less than $14.00/hour (less than $27K /year). If they're lucky, overtime might put them in the mid-30's. For this, they routinely deal with the drunk, abrasive, violent, arrogant dregs of our society that most of us (if we're lucky) never have to deal with. In fact, when we are confronted by these people, we usually call a cop to deal with them.

Despite injury, verbal abuse, and a generally-unsympathetic community, they keep coming back to work and most of them do an admirable job - even when they're confronted by some "schmuck" who wants to tell them how overpaid they are for sitting in their squad cars eight-hours a day, eating doughnuts, drinking coffee and dreaming about how they're going to spend their golden years on the public dole.

 

[Lincsong]

Johnny, you make very excellent points. And I am not attempting to say that all police officers are raking in $100,000 per year or more nationwide. But that is the going rate here in California. Here in San Leandro, California there was an article on Monday October 29 about 50 police officers out of a force of 93 who are working the system for over $100,000 per year. www.dailyreviewonline.com October 29, 2007 front page. San Leandro police among highest-paid city employees
http://www.insidebayarea.com/search/ci_7311248

One of my cousin's has been working as a Bay Area Rapid Transit police officer for the last 2 years. On his second week he and another officer had to apprehend a suspicious character on a BART platform wearing a raincoat. When the suspect didn't respond to the officer's command to raise his arms they slammed him to the ground. A sawed off shotgun fell out of the raincoat. So yes, we as the public must understand and appreciate what the officer's are faced with on a daily basis.

Another friend of mine is a former Airborne Ranger who served in the first Gulf War. He has been an Oakland Police Officer for about 12 years. He's had numerous complaints logged against him for excessive force all of which have been thrown out by juries. It's not easy.

 

[Big Man]

Wow! So much for feeling welcome at the lounge.

Don't worry - I've got your back.

 

[indycop]

Don't worry - I've got your back.

I'll take that with honor!!!

 

[Johnnysan]

Johnny, you make very excellent points. And I am not attempting to say that all police officers are raking in $100,000 per year or more nationwide. But that is the going rate here in California. Here in San Leandro, California there was an article on Monday October 29 about 50 police officers out of a force of 93 who are working the system for over $100,000 per year. www.dailyreviewonline.com October 29, 2007 front page. San Leandro police among highest-paid city employees
http://www.insidebayarea.com/search/ci_7311248

...and, looking at these statistics, I can see why people in your community may be concerned at the amount of money being spent on police protection.

Not to hijack this thread, but...fftopic:

Patronage and political corruption might be one cause, but a more likely factor is that San Leandro is 20 minutes away from one of the most expensive cities (San Francisco) in the United States where the starting salary for police officers is from $71,526-$90,298.

San Leandro also has a growing Hispanic population, which may mean that many of your officers are either bilingual or working to become so. If true, this increases their job skills, their marketability elsewhere and their net worth as an employee. San Leandro also ranks below average in property and violent crimes when compared to the rest of the state. Apparently, your officers are doing something right.

By comparison, Waukegan, Illinois (a suburb of Chicago with a demographic similar to San Leandro), starts their officers around $42,000/year. A Chicago rookie makes $43,000. If that same officer were to transfer from the Chicago metro area to the San Francisco metro area, they could expect a 114% increase in the cost of housing.

I'm not trying to pick a fight, but this is simple market economics - the cost of everything (including labor) is high in the area where you live. Indeed, the article you cited even goes on to state that "Compared with other cities in the Bay Area, San Leandro's public employee salaries fared about in the middle."

I do appreciate your perspective and your response - and your concerns are certainly valid. I just think we need to look at more than base dollars when deciding whether or not a group of individuals are being fairly compensated for their work.

Kudos to your cousin and your friend for their service. If they survive 20 years in law enforcement with thier health and sanity in tact, they'll deserve whatever they take away from the job in addition to the aches, pains and occasional nightmares!

 

[Baron Kurtz]

I shall refrain in future from relating personal experience of the behaviour of police officers. I'm sure there are nice cops out there. As i've said: i've yet to meet one.

bk

 

[John in Covina]

Send the story to all of the TV news stations and copy his precint captain, when you embarass the cops then they may back down.

Out here it still says "to Protect and to Serve" not give them the shaft.

 

[Fletch]

I don't imagine a physically imposing Nordic type like you would get much grief either way, John. You'd have to have a backseat full of babies in burlap bags and an expired license plate.

 

[John in Covina]

I have a number of police officer friends and even they will tell you that if you think an officer has acted inappropriately you need to tell someone that is a higher up. If you are pissed off and hot about it go to the tv stations, it falls under stirring the pot.

 

[ScionPI2005]

My experience with police officers does not come from personally knowing one in my group of family or friends, nor any frequent experience with police in daily civilian life.

For the Criminology degree that I am getting, I have taken several sociology courses tailored to policing. The curriculum of these courses varied from the history of policing to the social life of police.

Also, as a private investigator working with unsolved homicides, I have read pages upon pages of incident reports. Some reports I read are legible and detailed and complete, and yet others are so difficult to read my eyes hurt.

While I am not a cop, in my training, I can put myself in an officer's shoes, and begin to comprehend what goes on when an incident report is filed. With reports of gunshots, or a homicide, an officer has to initially find the location after being called from dispatch. Once there, the officer perhaps has several to numerous witnesses asking questions, being hysterical, and talking at once. The officer's job is to obtain as much information as possible for the incident report in as little time as possible. Naturally, when a human being is put in this situation, errors are likely to occur. An address may be written down incorrectly, or statements may be inaccurate or mixed up.

Naturally, these points differ from the original police incident that started this thread. I'm not condoning the actions of the officer who abuses their privileges, or fails to think like a regular human being when the situation calls for it. All I'm saying is that I can tell that being a peace officer is not easy sometimes. I wouldn't want to take on all that responsibility; heck, their are times that I think being a simple training PI is difficult enough.

 

[Feraud]

All the points in this thread have been good ones.

Something to keep in mind is we are not talking about the job of police officers but traffic enforcement officials. This story is not about the cop on the beat. It is not a high stress, potentially violent situation but one in which the official had to write that ticket regardless of the situation. Not a decent thing to do considering the specific situation.

As I mentioned earlier there are plenty of blatant infractions that are begging to be enfored, but someone needs to have a little heart for a guy helping out his fellow man.

 

[Johnnysan]

All the points in this thread have been good ones.

Something to keep in mind is we are not talking about the job of police officers but traffic enforcement officials. This story is not about the cop on the beat. It is not a high stress, potentially violent situation but one in which the official had to write that ticket regardless of the situation. Not a decent thing to do considering the specific situation.

As I mentioned earlier there are plenty of blatant infractions that are begging to be enfored, but someone needs to have a little heart for a guy helping out his fellow man.

Well said! :eusa_clap

 

[Twitch]

It's simply flawed to compare law enforcement personnel into a situation of parking enforcement. In most large cities parking enforcement is done by people WITHOUT law enforcement training. Their weapon is a citation book not a gun. They are basically rent-a-cops. And as such they are at the bottom of the food chain when it comes to pay also. Since these folks aren't armed they don't have to be genius material so some dummies get jobs.

Parking Enforcement and Traffic are 2 diverse depeartments. The 1st is the rent-a-cop dummies on 3 wheel scooters and Traffic is a patrol car with a trained-in-law-enforcement person at the wheel. Traffic cops are the ones responsible for moving violations and as such have to make vehicle stops which can often end in their getting shot, run over or must commence a high speed chase due some tin horn felon that just knocked over a liquor store.

I'd be sursrised to find NYC paying real cops to mind meters so this was the rent-a-cops right? And traffic cops don't fart around with parking enforcement when they have rent-a-cop meter maids.

 

[Lincsong]

...Patronage and political corruption might be one cause, but a more likely factor is that San Leandro is 20 minutes away from one of the most expensive cities (San Francisco) in the United States where the starting salary for police officers is from $71,526-$90,298.


I'm not trying to pick a fight, but this is simple market economics - the cost of everything (including labor) is high in the area where you live. Indeed, the article you cited even goes on to state that "Compared with other cities in the Bay Area, San Leandro's public employee salaries fared about in the middle."

I do appreciate your perspective and your response - and your concerns are certainly valid. I just think we need to look at more than base dollars when deciding whether or not a group of individuals are being fairly compensated for their work.

Kudos to your cousin and your friend for their service. If they survive 20 years in law enforcement with thier health and sanity in tact, they'll deserve whatever they take away from the job in addition to the aches, pains and occasional nightmares!

Johhny, I never consider a discussion as "picking a fight".

 

[Johnnysan]

Johhny, I never consider a discussion as "picking a fight".

You're a good man...

As you could probably tell, this issue touched on a nerve. I faced the exact same situation when I served as a city councilman. Faced with a budget crunch, the majority of the council (I was in the minority) cut police personnel. Overtime costs then escalated, costing the city more than we would have spent had we hired additional officers.

The bottom line was that it was politically more expedient to cut personnel and bury the cost of that decision, than it was to educate the community as to why additional personnel were needed and hiring them would ultimately have led to a cost savings.

I really appreciate your response and am glad I did not give offense. Another great example of the caliber of folks here at the Lounge, where people can disagree without being disagreeable!

 

[Nashoba]

In fact the cops out here work 4 ten hour days and get paid 2 hours time and half for each of the four days!!!!!

I worked in Law Enforcement IN the bay area for over 5 years, and I still have many friends who are in LE in the bay area. Most departments nationwide actually work 4 tens or 3 twelves or some combination there of. Very few departments work 5 eights. Just doesn't really happen. In fact in the dept's I worked for it was a big deal when someone went to Investigations because it meant that they got to switch to regular schedule. They don't get overtime for the other two hours or four hours over the 8. They get a three day weekend. When I was with the State Police we worked a rotating 3/4 twelve. Meaning we would rotate between having 3 and 4 days off, but the weeks that we had 3 days off we worked 4 twelve hour days. The state of California was nice enough to exempt themselves and government employees from that overtime law. Even though California goes by an 8 hour work day government local and state are exempt from that and follow the 40 hour work week. I worked for them long enough to know that and have enough friends still there who would be having some serious chats with HR and payroll if they were missing out on an extra 2 hours a day of overtime. Even in the federal government there are those who work 4 tens. They don't get overtime for it, they get a three day weekend
Yes there is alot of overtime to be had but that is also becauase there are alot of outside events / details that require police presence. And also because sadly many departments are short staffed and overtime is necessary just to bring manpower up to the required levels. When I worked for Morgan Hill PD we actually had mandatory overtime. We were so short staffed that we were *required* (literally) to take at minimum 3 overtime shifts a week. If you didn't sign up for them on your own you were assigned. If you didn't like it, well here's the door. It's not necessarily fair, but it's necessary. Even in a small town. The dept has to run.
Santa Clara County has some of the highest paid officers in the country. That is a true statistic. Not the highest paid, but among them. They also have among the most expensive living conditions in the country as well. When you state that there are officer's who make $100k plus, take a moment to consider where they live. When I worked for the State Police in San Jose, Ca 90% of our officers lived 40 miles or more from our station because they couldn't afford the area. Most of San Jose PD and a good portion of SF PD (I have many friends there) don't live in San Jose, or San Francisco. They can't afford it. That's kind of the norm in a lot of the higher income areas of the country. The emergency services can't afford to live in the areas they serve. My best friend works in Los Gatos. She lives in Foster City. While her commute is only 30 minutes I know officers who have 2 hour commutes. We used to have 2 officers who would sleep at the station in the locker room on cots during their work week becuase going home every night was too expensive and exhausting. So why don't they just go work for a dept closer to home? Well because there has to be an opening. It's a luxury to live in the community you serve. Anyone in LE in a high cost area will tell you that. Most of them work the overtime just to survive. I know I did. Without the overtime shifts, it was difficult to make rent, pay utilities, and still eat.

I'm not condoning what that parking officer did. There is a time and place for letter of the law and a time and place for the spirit of the law. But as has been said, there is a slight difference between the parking officer and the LEO. We had some rather overzealous parking officers when I was with the state and please know that there was no love lost between them and us. Heck, there was one who used to regularly ticket *us* whenever he got the chance. Some people are just like that. Was what happened an injustice? I would say so. I believe that there are instances where the spirit of the law should be followed rather than the letter. But they do have that discretion. On the LE side, I've seen officers let people go with pot in their car because they were honest about it, and write a ticket for speeding 5 miles over because the person was beligerant. It's their discretion. That doens't make what that parking officer did right but I would say that you were lucky you weren't blocking the hydrant. I'm sure you would have gotten a ticket too

 

[Smithy]

Senator Jack, you are quite right to be royally pissed off by this officer's behaviour. That is appalling that the other poor chap who was just trying to be a good citizen and look out for others in his community gets plonked with a ticket. As has been said, I would go to the press as well as offering to pay the ticket. Why on earth the copper couldn't have used a little bit of discretion and commonsense is beyond me.

 

[Lincsong]

I worked in Law Enforcement IN the bay area for over 5 years, and I still have many friends who are in LE in the bay area. Most departments nationwide actually work 4 tens or 3 twelves or some combination there of. Very few departments work 5 eights. Just doesn't really happen. In fact in the dept's I worked for it was a big deal when someone went to Investigations because it meant that they got to switch to regular schedule. They don't get overtime for the other two hours or four hours over the 8. They get a three day weekend. When I was with the State Police we worked a rotating 3/4 twelve. Meaning we would rotate between having 3 and 4 days off, but the weeks that we had 3 days off we worked 4 twelve hour days. The state of California was nice enough to exempt themselves and government employees from that overtime law. Even though California goes by an 8 hour work day government local and state are exempt from that and follow the 40 hour work week. I worked for them long enough to know that and have enough friends still there who would be having some serious chats with HR and payroll if they were missing out on an extra 2 hours a day of overtime. Even in the federal government there are those who work 4 tens. They don't get overtime for it, they get a three day weekend
Yes there is alot of overtime to be had but that is also becauase there are alot of outside events / details that require police presence. And also because sadly many departments are short staffed and overtime is necessary just to bring manpower up to the required levels. When I worked for Morgan Hill PD we actually had mandatory overtime. We were so short staffed that we were *required* (literally) to take at minimum 3 overtime shifts a week. If you didn't sign up for them on your own you were assigned. If you didn't like it, well here's the door. It's not necessarily fair, but it's necessary. Even in a small town. The dept has to run.
Santa Clara County has some of the highest paid officers in the country. That is a true statistic. Not the highest paid, but among them. They also have among the most expensive living conditions in the country as well. When you state that there are officer's who make $100k plus, take a moment to consider where they live. When I worked for the State Police in San Jose, Ca 90% of our officers lived 40 miles or more from our station because they couldn't afford the area. Most of San Jose PD and a good portion of SF PD (I have many friends there) don't live in San Jose, or San Francisco. They can't afford it. That's kind of the norm in a lot of the higher income areas of the country. The emergency services can't afford to live in the areas they serve. My best friend works in Los Gatos. She lives in Foster City. While her commute is only 30 minutes I know officers who have 2 hour commutes. We used to have 2 officers who would sleep at the station in the locker room on cots during their work week becuase going home every night was too expensive and exhausting. So why don't they just go work for a dept closer to home? Well because there has to be an opening. It's a luxury to live in the community you serve. Anyone in LE in a high cost area will tell you that. Most of them work the overtime just to survive. I know I did. Without the overtime shifts, it was difficult to make rent, pay utilities, and still eat.

Most Police and Firemen don't live in the cities here in the Bay Area because they don't want to live here not that they can't afford to live here. They will live out in Tracy and Brentwood because they don't want to live here. They'd rather just pay the same or higher price for a home out there because they don't want to deal with the high crime, poor schools and HIGHER TAXES etc. A $600,000 mortgage is still a $600,000 mortgage whether it's in the Bay Area or out in Brentwood or Tracy. There are other's making less doing it.

I know another guy who is with Hayward PD and not only was he raised in Hayward he actually lives in Hayward and sends his three kids to private school. :eusa_clap He gets another round of :eusa_clap because he's a white guy working PD in a high crime town, dealing mostly with gangs, and continues to be dedicated to the community he works, serves and lives.

Last year a local television news team did an investigation into Frisco Firemen who were milking the overtime and where did these "dedicated" public servents live??? They tracked them down to; Portland, Oregon, Apple Valley, Minnesota, Tampa, Florida, Phoenix Arizona among other towns. The firemen would set their schedules to work 9-10 days in a row then take off to their lower tax, lower crime home towns. The guy who was living in Apple Valley, Minnesota was living 1 mile from a volunteer fire department!!!!

There's a lot of corruption among government employees in California and they will attempt to take the taxpayers for suckers if we aren't vigilant. Even high-tech companies aren't paying $150,000 a year let alone other private enterprises. In Jack's case, this guy was milking the overtime.