And Ode to the British Service Revolver

[plain old dave]

Must be a contrarian here. The fighting revolver IMHO was perfected in 1873 by (as the Brits would say) Colt's. A Cavalry Colt Single Action Army is a deadly fighting arm at most any visual range; the memoirs of Indian-era cavalrymen are full of accounts of shootouts with Indians out on the plains at several hundred yards with the issue Colt and its 255gr slug cooking along at 950 f/s. The 'tiny' grip eats recoil, and a story is in order.

When Elmer Keith (later inventor of the .44 Magnum) was an inspector at the Ogden Arsenal during WW2, he mentioned to some Ordinance Corps officers that the true test of handgun accuracy was long range (several hundred yards) shooting, a belief he held his entire life. After numerous incredulous comments, Elmer took a random M1911 off the line along with 2 magazines full of 230gr FMJ ammo, went out back to the long range, had a snowman built several hundred yards out, and was hitting it every time by Round 14 and the end of the second magazine. The incident is in either "Sixguns By Keith" or "H***, I Was There!" I have duplicated it with an Artillery Model (5.5" barrel).

I like Webleys, used to have an Mk II. I like the Webley Green, too. A Webley you can shoot .45 Colt shells through, best of both worlds. Just too ungainly for my taste and a little clumsy for a fighting handgun.

 

[Carlo]

Must be a contrarian here. The fighting revolver IMHO was perfected in 1873 by (as the Brits would say) Colt's. A Cavalry Colt Single Action Army is a deadly fighting arm at most any visual range; the memoirs of Indian-era cavalrymen are full of accounts of shootouts with Indians out on the plains at several hundred yards with the issue Colt and its 255gr slug cooking along at 950 f/s. The 'tiny' grip eats recoil, and a story is in order.

When Elmer Keith (later inventor of the .44 Magnum) was an inspector at the Ogden Arsenal during WW2, he mentioned to some Ordinance Corps officers that the true test of handgun accuracy was long range (several hundred yards) shooting, a belief he held his entire life. After numerous incredulous comments, Elmer took a random M1911 off the line along with 2 magazines full of 230gr FMJ ammo, went out back to the long range, had a snowman built several hundred yards out, and was hitting it every time by Round 14 and the end of the second magazine. The incident is in either "Sixguns By Keith" or "H***, I Was There!" I have duplicated it with an Artillery Model (5.5" barrel).

I like Webleys, used to have an Mk II. I like the Webley Green, too. A Webley you can shoot .45 Colt shells through, best of both worlds. Just too ungainly for my taste and a little clumsy for a fighting handgun.

As a fan of the single action Colt revolvers, I have to respectfully disagree. While it's an excellent revolver, as a weapon, it leaves a bit to be desired compared to the 455 Service revolver.

Being .45 caliber revolvers, neither should hold an upper hand over the other in a stopping power comparison.

In hindsight, neither one could be considered to be a good "weapon" compared to a modern semi-auto pistol, but the Colt, while not being ungainly from an ergonomic standpoint, is very ungainly from a functional standpoint.
I can't help but wonder how Col. Custer and his men might have fared if they'd been able to instantly eject empty rounds (or freshen up a partially unloaded cylinder), and easily feed fresh rounds into the open rear of the cylinder, vs pushing each empty shell out with a rod attached to the barrel, then feeding each loaded round into the loading gate while rotating the cylinder by hand.

Oh, and while Elmer Keith was among the best firearms journalists, and a historic figure in his own right, just because the true test of a pistol's accuracy is how it can do at several hundred yards, I doubt that long-range accuracy was ever a factor in a melee where pistols are the most appropriate weapon. Long range accuracy has a lot more to do with the shooter than it has to do with the gun. Pistols work best for 99% of us at close range, and are pretty much useless to the average shooter at long distances.

(I can't say for certain, but I doubt that the black powder Colt .45 was capable of pushing a 255 gr bullet at 950 fps, I've been reloading .45 LC for many years to shoot in a modern Smith and Wesson, and anything over 900 fps is moving right along, 750 fps would be more like it)

 

[DavidJones]

Thanks much for reviving this older thread. I have a Mark VI Webley chambered for .45 acp, and it is one of my favorite revolvers to take to the range.
I'm glad to read other's thoughts of this weapon on the forum.
Thanks again.

 

[Rathdown]

For the record--

.455 Webley Mk II cartridge (the common WWI round):
case pressure on ignition: 15,000 psi
muzzle energy: 220 lb/ft
bullet weight: 265 gr.
velocity: 620 ft/sec
penetration: 9-inches of FBI ballistic medium

.45 ACP & Auo Rim (the common WWI round)
case pressure on ignition: 21,000 psi
muzzle energy: 352 lb/ft
bullet weight: 230 gr.
velocity: 850 ft/sec
penetration: 27-inches of FBI ballistic medium

From this we know several things. First shooting .45 ACP (or AutoRim) in a "convereted" Webley revolver is potentially dangerous as the .45 ACP creates almost 50% more pressure in the chamber than does the .455. In effect every pull of the trigger is the same as firing the original "proof" load. Webley cylinders regularly crack or burst when subjected to this type of treatment.

We also know that it is penetration that stops an aggressor, not measured impact (which in any case is greater, across the board, for the .45 ACP round). Impact only plays a role when sectional density is taken into account (think orange vs. grapefruit) and even then projectile weight is a potentially measurable factor. But back to penetration; why is it important? Because the greater the wound channel (in both diameter and length) the sooner the supply of oxygenated blood is denied to the brain and the quicker the aggressor looses consciousness. Other psychological factors may enter into play, but in general terms, with a large caliber bullet, a wounded aggressor will faint within 20-60 seconds from blood loss, even though the wound itself may not be fatal. The other way to incapacitate an aggressor is to immediately disrupt the central nervous system. When that happens, they drop like a sack of spuds falling off the back of a lorry, even though they may retain consciousness for minutes before passing out or expiring.

The .455 round was effective against naked or lightly clothed aggressors armed with sharp pointed sticks and cow hide shields, but when put to the test against well-armed and well-trained European troops, it was adequate, but certainly no super-weapon, especially when fired in the decrepit Webley revolver with its inherently weak top break, hinged design. Don't get me wrong. A Webley-Greene revolver with church steeple cylinder is a gorgeous piece of Gothic architecture -- but by 1913 Smith & Wesson had dropped the last of their big-bore top break revolvers in favour of their "hand ejectors" with swing out cylinders brought out in 1896... a new series of revolvers for the modern age.

 

[Chasseur]

especially when fired in the decrepit Webley revolver with its inherently weak top break, hinged design. Don't get me wrong. A Webley-Greene revolver with church steeple cylinder is a gorgeous piece of Gothic architecture -- but by 1913 Smith & Wesson had dropped the last of their big-bore top break revolvers in favour of their "hand ejectors" with swing out cylinders brought out in 1896... a new series of revolvers for the modern age.

Hey, some of us like break top revolvers... Says the man with a Uberti Schofield replica that he loves...

 

[Carlo]

This probably isn't the place for a discussion like this, but I have to ask; how does your contention about penetration being more important than impact jibe with the generally accepted wisdom about "stopping power" which rates the .45 ACP as greatly superior to the 9mm Parabellum, even though both deliver approximately the same amount of kinetic energy?

 

[Carlo]

Let's see a picture of it! I'm a fan of .45 LC revolvers.

 

[DeaconKC]

There was a pretty good discussion of the 9 vs 45 here:
http://www.thefedoralounge.com/showthread.php?61868-9mm-or-45cal

 

[Rathdown]

This probably isn't the place for a discussion like this, but I have to ask; how does your contention about penetration being more important than impact jibe with the generally accepted wisdom about "stopping power" which rates the .45 ACP as greatly superior to the 9mm Parabellum, even though both deliver approximately the same amount of kinetic energy?

"Stopping power" is one of those catch phrases that really looks good in print, but lacks any sort useful definition in the real world. To move this discussion along let's all agree that "stopping power" is the ability to incapacitate aggressive behavior as quickly as possible, which may, or may not, have lethal consequences. With identical bullets (for the sake of argument we'll assume both guns are firing standard military "ball" ammunition) the 11.25mm .45 ACP round will create a much larger and deeper wound channel than the 9mm round. This larger/deeper wound channel will allow exsanguination to occur at a faster rate. Thus, given (hypothetically) identical wounds, an aggressor will be more quickly incapacitated by the damage inflicted by the larger bullet.

As regards impact, simple physics tell us that for a handgun round to have enough energy to knock an aggressor down, the recoil would also knock down the shooter. Since we can't rely on a bullet to "knock down" an aggressor, we have to rely on penetration as the key to effectively terminating aggressive behavior.

If you would like to know more about this subject, google Urey W. Patrick and read his paper on handgun wounding factors and effectiveness.

 

[Rathdown]

Hey, some of us like break top revolvers... Says the man with a Uberti Schofield replica that he loves...

Indeed, replied the man with a brace of Uberti "Russians" on order. (You know, that Schofield will just fit in the glove box of a Traction Avant... )

 

[Chasseur]

Indeed, replied the man with a brace of Uberti "Russians" on order. (You know, that Schofield will just fit in the glove box of a Traction Avant... )

Hmm I did not know that but that is of great future interest.... I like most of the features of the Russians (lanyard swivel, the grip, etc.), but I like the Schofield opening system a little better.

 

[Chasseur]

Let's see a picture of it! I'm a fan of .45 LC revolvers.

I used to shoot cowboy so its my last of my SASS guns. A little beat up from a bad encounter with a wet holster but I've had the action and trigger worked so they are crisp and clean like a clock.

Just call me the Schofield Kid!
[video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aijBO7iKcnE[/video]

And another great Schofield scene (but viewer discretion beware!):
[video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0B5lFuTUhso[/video]

I used to have one of those converted Webley Mark VI to 45ACP back when I was foolhardy and before I knew about strange things like pressure and stuff... It was in perfect condition and I shot the hell out of it. Nothing bad happened and it was in still the same great condition when I sold it once the double gun bug bit me. One day I'd like to get an original Webley in 455 one day. Not a priority though at the moment.

 

[Rathdown]

So, asked the Old Writer, is that you over on the 24 Hour Campfire?

 

[Chasseur]

So, asked the Old Writer, is that you over on the 24 Hour Campfire?

Glad to see you over here

 

[gtdean48]

...

....

Always wanted one of these for my Cowboy Mounted Shooting rig....someday....

 

[Hunter_aka_Scotty]

Sure wish the cost a little less! I'd love to pick one of these up.

 

[Hamlet]

If it's okay with the caliber queens I'll continue to enjoy and appreciate as many different flavors as I please. Until of course they find the one true miracle round and delivery system to rule them all...