An Intro to Hat Terminology: A Fedora Lounge Guide

[moontheloon]

There is only one person here getting worked up and feeling the need to let it go... everyone else is just casually discussing very common hat terminology


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[T Jones]

Just my two cents, here. Well, sh*t. Screw that. Here's 50 worth. Firstly, Colonel, I love the cap and jacket in your avatar. But, the guys are right. Snap brim isn't a relatively new term. It's been around awhile. It's the flange that gives the brim its snap, just like the block gives the open crown its shape, with or without stiffener.

Ironing out the brim on my fedora 'snap brim' flange.

All done flanging the 'snap brim'

End result. A 'snap brim'

Stetson OR that had some stiffener but I reflanged the brim to a snap brim and reshaped the crown

Late '40s - very early '50s Stetson Nutria conversion to a fedora with snap brim. Absolutely no stiffener. Really soft. I mean, really really soft.

It's all about the flange.

 

[T Jones]

I was really speaking more to the point about snap brims. While one might describe a particular specimen as being relatively 'stiff,' if it's a fedora, you're still talking about soft felt hat.

Ergo, when Anthony says "a stiff brim will not snap," he's entirely correct.

You cannot, for example, snap the brim on a bowler, nor a Homburg for that matter. Although the nomenclature of "Homburg" is more of a term in the popular culture, as opposed to one initially used by hat makers to describe that style of hat. But that's a different discussion, which more educated members can better explain (and a topic for another day).

Certainly we all have described the "stiffness" of our "soft felt" hats, but if we want to be precise in our terminology (and this is certainly the thread for it), "stiff felt" doesn't snap.

You can get them to snap, but you'd have to change everything about the brim. You'd have to iron out the pencil curl and original flange and make it flat. Then you'd have to reflange it on a snap brim flange. But then it wouldn't be a Homburg anymore. I have some hats that are stiff and some that are soft where I got the brims to snap. But, regardless, stiffener isn't the determining factor in making a brim snap. It all goes back to the flange.

 

[moontheloon]

Just my two cents, here. Well, sh*t. Screw that. Here's 50 worth. Firstly, Colonel, I love the cap and jacket in your avatar. But, the guys are right. Snap brim isn't a relatively new term. It's been around awhile. It's the flange that gives the brim its snap, just like the block gives the open crown its shape, with or without stiffener.

Ironing out the brim on my fedora 'snap brim' flange.

All done flanging the 'snap brim'

End result. A 'snap brim'

Stetson OR that had some stiffener but I reflanged the brim to a snap brim and reshaped the crown

Late '40s - very early '50s Stetson Nutria conversion to a fedora with snap brim. Absolutely no stiffener. Really soft. I mean, really really soft.

It's all about the flange.

Nice breakdown Terry
Thank you


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Frunobulax]

I don't think @jlee562 meant any offence or implied you were lying, he was just trying to point out that "stiff felt" and "soft felt" are terms which were used by the hat industry long before the names fedora, trilby, homburg etc were in common use. What we call fedoras are what they called soft felts, while bowlers and top hats were called stiff felts. Those are not slang definitions, they are the ones coined by the industry ergo the official terminology.

Of course, I also refer to some of my soft felt hats as being relatively stiff and others as very soft when describing the quality of the felt, but by definition they are all still "soft felt" hats. Like you say it's just semantics.

Just my two cents, here. Well, sh*t. Screw that. Here's 50 worth. Firstly, Colonel, I love the cap and jacket in your avatar. But, the guys are right. Snap brim isn't a relatively new term. It's been around awhile. It's the flange that gives the brim its snap, just like the block gives the open crown its shape, with or without stiffener.


It's all about the flange.

Perfect, Celia and Terry. I read the Colonel's last post in the middle of the night and went back to bed forming a long and, in my mind, cogent response to his post, only to wake up and find you two did a better job than I ever could.

Curse you for stifling my eloquence!

 

[Redfokker]

I was really speaking more to the point about snap brims. While one might describe a particular specimen as being relatively 'stiff,' if it's a fedora, you're still talking about soft felt hat.

Ergo, when Anthony says "a stiff brim will not snap," he's entirely correct.

You cannot, for example, snap the brim on a bowler, nor a Homburg for that matter. Although the nomenclature of "Homburg" is more of a term in the popular culture, as opposed to one initially used by hat makers to describe that style of hat. But that's a different discussion, which more educated members can better explain (and a topic for another day).

Certainly we all have described the "stiffness" of our "soft felt" hats, but if we want to be precise in our terminology (and this is certainly the thread for it), "stiff felt" doesn't snap.

+1 Per Steve, "Soft Felt Dress Hat" = Homburg

 

[Redfokker]

There is only one person here getting worked up and feeling the need to let it go... everyone else is just casually discussing very common hat terminology


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

+1

 

[mayserwegener]

"Stiff felt" encompasses bowlers and the like. Modern westerns are also stiff felts.

There was a different method of making Stiff Felt hats up to around the 1950s (most cases earlier). Today what are considered a Bowler / Derby / Melonen aren't made under the same processes. I would call them Stiffer Soft Felts. Also modern Western Hats would still be considered Soft Felt hats.

 

[Frunobulax]

There was a different method of making Stiff Felt hats up to around the 1950s (most cases earlier). Today what are considered a Bowler / Derby / Melonen aren't made under the same processes. I would call them Stiffer Soft Felts. Also modern Western Hats would still be considered Soft Felt hats.

That was my thinking. Although most Western brims are shaped and lacquered to stay in place, the crowns can and are able to be shaped, even if you have to stick them in the shower like Roy Rogers.

 

[Colonel Adam]

I don't think @jlee562 meant any offence or implied you were lying, he was just trying to point out that "stiff felt" and "soft felt" are terms which were used by the hat industry long before the names fedora, trilby, homburg etc were in common use. What we call fedoras are what they called soft felts, while bowlers and top hats were called stiff felts. Those are not slang definitions, they are the ones coined by the industry ergo the official terminology.

Of course, I also refer to some of my soft felt hats as being relatively stiff and others as very soft when describing the quality of the felt, but by definition they are all still "soft felt" hats. Like you say it's just semantics.

I'm no longer commenting on this tread. Thank you.

 

[Colonel Adam]

Just my two cents, here. Well, sh*t. Screw that. Here's 50 worth. Firstly, Colonel, I love the cap and jacket in your avatar. But, the guys are right. Snap brim isn't a relatively new term. It's been around awhile. It's the flange that gives the brim its snap, just like the block gives the open crown its shape, with or without stiffener.

Ironing out the brim on my fedora 'snap brim' flange.

All done flanging the 'snap brim'

End result. A 'snap brim'

Stetson OR that had some stiffener but I reflanged the brim to a snap brim and reshaped the crown

Late '40s - very early '50s Stetson Nutria conversion to a fedora with snap brim. Absolutely no stiffener. Really soft. I mean, really really soft.

It's all about the flange.

I'm no longer commenting on this thread. Thank you.

 

[mayserwegener]

That was my thinking. Although most Western brims are shaped and lacquered to stay in place, the crowns can and are able to be shaped, even if you have to stick them in the shower like Roy Rogers.

Modern Machine forming has similarities to traditional Stiff Felt production but with different end results. Up to WWII most large scale Fur or Wool Hat Factories had separate departments / sections for Stiff and Soft Felt Hats. You see Soft Felts with stiffer brims and crowns but they were not Stiff Felts. For example this late 1930s Hückel Superior Soft Felt has a stiffer Crown and Brim but it's not a Stiff Felt.

 

[Frunobulax]

Modern Machine forming has similarities to traditional Stiff Felt production but with different end results. Up to WWII most large scale Fur or Wool Hat Factories had separate departments / sections for Stiff and Soft Felt Hats. You see Soft Felts with stiffer brims and crowns but they were not Stiff Felts. For example this late 1930s Hückel Superior Soft Felt has a stiffer Crown and Brim but it's not a Stiff Felt.

Interesting comparison with the modern machine formed hats.

The finish on that Huckel is sublime.

 

[mayserwegener]

Interesting comparison with the modern machine formed hats.

The finish on that Huckel is sublime.

I have some pre WWII German books with sections on Stiff Felt production. I am not sure if there is anything here in English.

 

[jlee562]

I guess I can come off as somewhat pedantic sometimes. My apologies to Colonel Adam if any offense was caused. That was not my intention. I was merely trying to make the distinction that Steve/Mayserwegener points out above.

 

[T Jones]

Nice breakdown Terry
Thank you


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

You're welcome, buddy.

 

[T Jones]

I guess I can come off as somewhat pedantic sometimes. My apologies to Colonel Adam if any offense was caused. That was not my intention. I was merely trying to make the distinction that Steve/Mayserwegener points out above.

For what it's worth, no matter how he took it, Colonel Adam walked away from this with information he didn't have before...and I just gained some new information by checking in and reading mayserwegener's response. Seems it was a win for everyone.

 

[Nathaniel Finley]

Terminology question:
Is there a word for the bulge in the crown crease that's created by the top of the head / to make room for the top of the head? Here is an example in my FED IV:

I mean the upward bulge in the center. Is there a proper term for that?

Cheers,
Nathan

 

[Stormy]

For those of you new to hats, here's a brief intro to terms and styles. For the sake of simplicity and easy reading, a lot of the finer points have been omitted, but this will at least get you started.

General Hat Styles

Common hat creases

Hat Parts

Types of Brim Edges

Types of sweatbands

Thanks so much for this! I really needed it. Please pardon my ignorance, but where's the Derby btw?

 

[KarlCrow]

Terminology question:
Is there a word for the bulge in the crown crease that's created by the top of the head / to make room for the top of the head? Here is an example in my FED IV:

View attachment 82735

I mean the upward bulge in the center. Is there a proper term for that?

Cheers,
Nathan

I'm no expert but 'dome' or 'center-dome'. It's entirely possible I heard that expression once and adopted it, rather than it being correct terminology. If it doesn't pop out easily when I'm bashing I have a very small gravy jug that I use to pop it out from the inside, the spout pushes in towards the front crease, creating the teardrop shape rather than, i suppose, a dome shape, which the bowl of the jug indents.