An alternate Aeromarine??

[majormajor]

What's your estimate of the earliest zipper on a leather jacket in the 1920s? Mr Himel says recently:

"I own and have pictures of multitudes of jackets manufactured pre 1930 using hookless zippers (later Talon). These early zips date these jackets to the 1920s and I have recorded at least one hundred jacket brands making motorcycle jackets and other leathers during this period." Ref - http://www.schottnyc.com/forum/posts/schott_history.htm

This source says late-20s: http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=...onepage&q=1920s leather jacket zipper&f=false

So another major (excuse the non-pun) leather jacket collector says zippers definitely on leather jackets in 1920s. And you're happy with this fact, too, from what you've stated. All we have to do now is work out how early or late in the 1920s they emerge. Simple matter of fact. 1920s zippers, yes. Late-ish 20s, check.

Any takers?

The original and pretty nifty Zippers thread:
http://www.thefedoralounge.com/showthread.php?5809-Zippers&

Hi CW

PL's first comment in this thread re dates was in reply to my statement that I would not want a zip on an early 20's leather jacket. So was that an attempt to question the veracity of my statement? Probably - I don't see why else this issue has been brought up. As you say, the subject of dates for zippers is well documented. So I think we are almost going round in circles here.

By the late 20's, we know that zips were appearing on the market. The first source you mention takes the view that the jackets in question must be late 20's, based on the fact that "Hookless" became "Talon" in 1928. That does, however, assume that all stocks of "Hookless" brand immediately disappeared when the "Talon" brand was introduced. But we don't know that. The older zips (which were, after all, being mass-produced, and were not really being used widely) could well have remained in stock for a number of years - and could have been sold to garment manufacturers at a lower price than the new "Talon" versions. So to say: "hookless zipper equals 20's production" does not really work. Hookless branded zippers could well have been used in new garment production well after the introduction of the Talon brandname.

The second source you mention says zippers appeared in "jackets" in the late 20's, it also says they appeared in leather jackets in the early 30's.

So yes, we ALL agree that zips appeared in the late 20's, and became popular on leather jackets in the 30's, especially after 1935, when more manufacturers, such as Conmar, came to market.

But as I said originally, NOT in the early 20's

 

[bretron]

I'm beginning to think Major just needs to have the last word on the subject

Lets move on, please!

 

[ButteMT61]

I know what I wish had a zipper on it... #10 lol

 

[HoosierDaddy]

....or at least a button.

 

[Sloan1874]

Just to get back to DD's jacket, the addition of Himel's tuck away pockets with buttons or snaps might be a nice feature, and aesthetically add a nice balance to the front. I still think the collar needs to bigger though, otherwise to me it'd look 'bottom heavy'.

 

[handymike]

Hmmm...
Wider collar
throat latch
v shaped yoke
button sleeves
tuck away pockets
Starting to sound like a long legged bird...
Let's call it "the Stork" ;-)

 

[Sloan1874]

Or go the whole hog, mix up the hides and call it the Storsek.

 

[Ishmael]

It's simply amazing how many makers are now doing a something along the lines of a civilian A-1. Just a few months ago, a number of us were lamenting the lack of options. There was the LVC, the Himel, and one or two Japanese makers (in the last case, doing only very limited one-off runs). A veritable explosion of civi A-1s of late.

Here is, what looks to be, but is still under wraps, a new civi style A-1 from Mister Freedom.

 

[Sloan1874]

Lovely colour. And inset pockets by the looks of it!

 

[Ishmael]

Yeah, although similar, it seems every maker has just a bit different collar. First of the civi A-1 I've seen with inset pockets. But I wonder if those pockets actually remove it somewhat from the A-1 category. (not that it would matter to me, since I prefer the useability of the inset pockets).

 

[Sloan1874]

I'm a fan of Himel's solution with the tuck away pockets personally.

 

[Ishmael]

Yeah, me too. The tuck away pockets look great. Especially on a two tone.

 

[Edward]

Yeah, although similar, it seems every maker has just a bit different collar. First of the civi A-1 I've seen with inset pockets. But I wonder if those pockets actually remove it somewhat from the A-1 category. (not that it would matter to me, since I prefer the useability of the inset pockets).

Isn't the collar already a deviation? Wasn't the A1 collar knit, rather than leather, or have I missed a very early leather version?

 

[majormajor]

Isn't the collar already a deviation? Wasn't the A1 collar knit, rather than leather, or have I missed a very early leather version?

I'm with you on that one, Edward. The Heron type jacket has no knits, and generally, a shawl collar. I can understand that the A1 design could well have been derived from it. But that doesn't make it an A1(IMHO)

 

[Ishmael]

I hadn't put much thought into the term "civilian A-1". I just remember that being a term being floated around on FL when I first encountered the Heron / LVC style jackets. But, yeah, I can see where A-1 doesn't really work.

But if all these jackets do have a familial resemblance (shawl collar, buttons), what would be a better umbrella term?

 

[majormajor]

I hadn't put much thought into the term "civilian A-1". I just remember that being a term being floated around on FL when I first encountered the Heron / LVC style jackets. But, yeah, I can see where A-1 doesn't really work.

But if all these jackets do have a familial resemblance (shawl collar, buttons), what would be a better umbrella term?

Heron works for me

 

[Fanch]

For whatever reason, I have come to a gradual preference of jackets without knits. Hence my preference of the Heron, Aeromarine, etc. over the A-1, and the G&B Expedition (or any Indy jacket) over the A-2.

 

[majormajor]

For whatever reason, I have come to a gradual preference of jackets without knits. Hence my preference of the Heron, Aeromarine, etc. over the A-1, and the G&B Expedition (or any Indy jacket) over the A-2.

Hi Fanch. I like both of 'em (A2 & Heron), and I count myself lucky to have excellent examples of each now

I do hanker, though, for a Heron with handwarmers of some description - hence, this thread

 

[Sloan1874]

Heron works for me

+1

 

[Dr H]

Isn't the collar already a deviation? Wasn't the A1 collar knit, rather than leather, or have I missed a very early leather version?

It's one of my (curmudgeonly and pedantic) bugbears.
This isn't an 'Type A-1' as the term a military designation covering a particular specification (with woollen collar knit, knitted cuffs, knitted waistband, etc.). Regardless of the origins of the Type A-1 (and, given the development in 1927, there were civilian flight/sports/cycling jackets around beforehand), the civilian jackets wouldn't have been called A-1.