American Accents in the Golden Era

[Daoud]

That New Yawk-ish New Orleans accent isn't dead, not yet anyway.....and many regional accents and dialects are still vibrant.....we have quite a number just in my locale. I think most of us speak a sort of homogenised Americanese in day-to-day use, in public, but when we're in the company of our home folks the less-formal way of speaking prevails. I had to laugh when Sarah Palin was made fun of for dropping the "g" on the end of her words.....shoot, just about everyone I know does that at some point. It seems to me that for many of us accents and dialects can be changed much like changing clothes- different ones for different occasions.

 

[Professor]

What is it?

My mother's family is pure Norwegian, from Minnesota, North Dakota and Wisconsin, and even though we've been in Los Angeles since the twenties, you still hear it. My father's family is a mix of Irish, Scot, Italian and German, all from San Francisco. They have the "old" San Francisco accent, something Midwestern in flavor as well. I grew up in Rialto, an old citrus town settled by Methodists from Kansas, followed by a mass Midwestern migration after the war. I like it 'cause it's like a chunk of the Midwest in Southern California and I feel right at home! So you might say my sound is Midwestern, but not exactly. I grew up listening to the BBC, and as you might guess, that rubbed off. I also love the way my Jewish friends talk, so that rubs off too. On top of that, I guess I sound Southern too...don't know why. The most common question people ask is "where are you from" followed by "no, really, you're not from California, are you?" lol

 

[Guttersnipe]

This is a REALLY INTERESTING book! I had the privilege of taking quite a few classes from Dr. Cassidy, one of which focused on the subject matter that later became this book. He was a fantastic teacher (and was unrepentant about his Brooklyn accent, which he refused to allow acidemia to temper).

Here's the book that explains it all:

 

[Professor]

This is largely, I believe, due to the fact that the language came to exist in England (and the rest of the British Isles), and each region developed their own dialect and accent before the radio, telephone, television, train, or motor car. The differences are fading fast though - I grew up in the West Country, and I only knew one person who went to school while I was there who had a proper West Country accent. Most people speak with a strange hybrid of several English accents, combined with some American pronunciation on some words (and American dialect).

I am often surprised by exchange students when they visit and sound more "American" than we do! I suspect that with so much television programming being produced in the Los Angeles region, everyone the world over is developing a "Valley" accent. shakeshead

 

[Selvaggio]

This is an interesting thread! I recently read some info about the development of my own accent. There was once a theory that the Australian accent was a kind of time capsule. The idea was that we had preserved the predominant London accent of the late 18th century, whilst the actual London accent itself had evolved into what it is today.

The latest evidence suggests, however, the Aussie accent was formed within two generations post European settlement and is essentially a complete blend of the very wide variety of British and Irish accents which were present in the penal colony of New Soth Wales at is founding. As a brand new colony there would have been no predominate accent. The first generation of non-aboriginal Australians would have been influenced by their mother's and father's accents (which most likely would have been different anyway), but also by their friends and other people they came into contact with. The blend created by the first generation was then be cemented in place by the second.

So now we have a pretty homogenous set of Aussie accents, with very little regional variation. There are three variants - working class (broad), middle Australian (neutral) and a very small sprinkling of "cultivated" accents (almost British). If you watch old Australian news reels the commentary is almost always delivered in a cultivated Australian accent - but then, as now, very few people actually spoke like that day to day. I suppose to the audience of the day it just sounded more appropriate that way - more BBC-like.

 

[Daoud]

"Received Pronunciation" it's called in England. The King's English, so to speak. Or Queen's, as the case may be.

 

[tuppence]

This is an interesting thread! I recently read some info about the development of my own accent. There was once a theory that the Australian accent was a kind of time capsule. The idea was that we had preserved the predominant London accent of the late 18th century, whilst the actual London accent itself had evolved into what it is today.

The latest evidence suggests, however, the Aussie accent was formed within two generations post European settlement and is essentially a complete blend of the very wide variety of British and Irish accents which were present in the penal colony of New Soth Wales at is founding. As a brand new colony there would have been no predominate accent. The first generation of non-aboriginal Australians would have been influenced by their mother's and father's accents (which most likely would have been different anyway), but also by their friends and other people they came into contact with. The blend created by the first generation was then be cemented in place by the second.

So now we have a pretty homogenous set of Aussie accents, with very little regional variation. There are three variants - working class (broad), middle Australian (neutral) and a very small sprinkling of "cultivated" accents (almost British). If you watch old Australian news reels the commentary is almost always delivered in a cultivated Australian accent - but then, as now, very few people actually spoke like that day to day. I suppose to the audience of the day it just sounded more appropriate that way - more BBC-like.

Selvaggio, I'm pretty sure there was a thread in the Fedora Lounge about the Australian accent. Just too lazy to look for it at the moment.

 

[tuppence]

I'd like to know about Jean Harlows accent. If any one can tell me what it is? Please.

 

[davestlouis]

I had read that the mode of speech employed by people in isolated Appalachian settlements in KY and TN is more closely related to 18th century "British English" than even modern spoken English in Britain. They were operating in a time warp of sorts.

I can tell you that even in metropolitan St Louis MO I can tell if a native is from South St Louis or South St Louis County within one or two sentences. They pronounce "forty four" as in Interstate 44, as "farty far". Likewise, people in outstate Missouri speak completely differently than the folks in STL...much more southern. Politicians have to be creative, because urbanites pronounce Missouri with the "I" sound on the end, in rural areas, it's and "ah" sound, so they have to be aware of their audience before they speak.

 

[Thunderbolt]

Founding Fathers

How about the founding fathers of the United States? The colonies had been around for over 100 years at the point of independence. Do you think the early Americans sounded British? I would expect George Washington to have sounded like an Englishman, but what about the 3rd or 4th generation farmer/plantation owner?

 

[Professor]

How about the founding fathers of the United States? The colonies had been around for over 100 years at the point of independence. Do you think the early Americans sounded British? I would expect George Washington to have sounded like an Englishman, but what about the 3rd or 4th generation farmer/plantation owner?

I've always imagined Washington and Jefferson sounding like Virginians, but then what did an eighteenth century Virginian sound like?

 

[scotrace]

Excellent Book

Be sure to read The Story of English.

The best surviving example of Elizabethan English is to be heard today in parts of Rural West Virginia, in the USA.

Jean Harlowe's accent is Hollywood's version of a tough New York dame.

 

[Daoud]

The idea that there are pockets of Appalachia in which Elizabethan English is still spoken has been largely discredited in recent years. For a brief overview of this see http://www9.georgetown.edu/faculty/zanuttir/Appalachian%20project/whatis.html Although the West Virginia Division of Culture and History's website still carries this misinformation, the source used is from 1969. Appalachian English is recognised as a valid dialect in its own right, in which many words and usages of non-standard English survive- including some from the Elizabethan era- but it isn't Elizabethan English.

 

[Lokar]

The idea that there are pockets of Appalachia in which Elizabethan English is still spoken has been largely discredited in recent years. For a brief overview of this see http://www9.georgetown.edu/faculty/zanuttir/Appalachian%20project/whatis.html Although the West Virginia Division of Culture and History's website still carries this misinformation, the source used is from 1969. Appalachian English is recognised as a valid dialect in its own right, in which many words and usages of non-standard English survive- including some from the Elizabethan era- but it isn't Elizabethan English.

On top of that, I'd have thought even if there were any places in the world with examples of Elizabethan English in the 50s-60s, they'd be gone now - as discussed earlier, mass-media and transport has corrupted many dialects and accents.

 

[reetpleat]

The idea that there are pockets of Appalachia in which Elizabethan English is still spoken has been largely discredited in recent years. For a brief overview of this see http://www9.georgetown.edu/faculty/zanuttir/Appalachian%20project/whatis.html Although the West Virginia Division of Culture and History's website still carries this misinformation, the source used is from 1969. Appalachian English is recognised as a valid dialect in its own right, in which many words and usages of non-standard English survive- including some from the Elizabethan era- but it isn't Elizabethan English.

People like to make fun of southerners, black and white for saying "ax" instead of "ask" as if it is an ignorant mispronunciation. they do not realize that it is a common alternate pronunciation that comes from old English (Chaucer used both asked and axed) and was once commonly used throughout new england and the midwest. I hate to say it, but if it was used by wealthy upper class people it would be considered charming, not ignorant.

Abraham Lincoln, contrary to popular portrayal, was said to have a high nasaly twang, as would be expected from a boy from kentucky.

Interesting thought of him, in that accent, debating Stephan Douglas, the greatest orator of the era who must have had quite a smooth southern cultured accent. And by all accounts, Lincoln held his own.

 

[scotrace]

The idea that there are pockets of Appalachia in which Elizabethan English is still spoken has been largely discredited in recent years. For a brief overview of this see http://www9.georgetown.edu/faculty/zanuttir/Appalachian%20project/whatis.html Although the West Virginia Division of Culture and History's website still carries this misinformation, the source used is from 1969. Appalachian English is recognised as a valid dialect in its own right, in which many words and usages of non-standard English survive- including some from the Elizabethan era- but it isn't Elizabethan English.

Ah, thanks! I will stop spreading that information.

 

[Kid Mac]

'Coffee Talk' Disappearing In Native New Yorkers

Brief article on apparent disappearance of NY dialect.

http://www.insidescience.org/research/coffee_talk_disappearing_in_native_new_yorkers

Mac

 

[Feraud]

Kid Mac's reply reminded me of an article I read a while back and thought it appropriate to post here.
From the NYT regarding the changing language of NYC's Chinatown.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/22/nyregion/22chinese.html

October 22, 2009
In Chinatown, Sound of the Future Is Mandarin
By KIRK SEMPLE
He grew up playing in the narrow, crowded streets of Manhattan’s Chinatown. He has lived and worked there for all his 61 years. But as Wee Wong walks the neighborhood these days, he cannot understand half the Chinese conversations he hears.

Cantonese, a dialect from southern China that has dominated the Chinatowns of North America for decades, is being rapidly swept aside by Mandarin, the national language of China and the lingua franca of most of the latest Chinese immigrants.

The change can be heard in the neighborhood’s lively restaurants and solemn church services, in parks, street markets and language schools. It has been accelerated by Chinese-American parents, including many who speak Cantonese at home, as they press their children to learn Mandarin for the advantages it could bring as China’s influence grows in the world.

But the eclipse of Cantonese — in New York, China and around the world — has become a challenge for older people who speak only that dialect and face increasing isolation unless they learn Mandarin or English. Though Cantonese and Mandarin share nearly all the same written characters, the pronunciations are vastly different; when spoken, Mandarin may be incomprehensible to a Cantonese speaker, and vice versa.

Mr. Wong, a retired sign maker who speaks English, can still get by with his Cantonese, which remains the preferred language in his circle of friends and in Chinatown’s historic core. A bit defiantly, he said that if he enters a shop and finds the staff does not speak his dialect, “I go to another store.”

Like many others, however, he is resigned to the likelihood that Cantonese — and the people who speak it — will soon become just another facet of a polyglot neighborhood. “In 10 years,” Mr. Wong said, “it will be totally different.”

With Mandarin’s ascent has come a realignment of power in Chinese-American communities, where the recent immigrants are gaining economic and political clout, said Peter Kwong, a professor of Asian-American studies at Hunter College.

“The fact of the matter is that you have a whole generation switch, with very few people speaking only Cantonese,” he said. The Cantonese-speaking populace, he added, “is not the player anymore.”

The switch mirrors a sea change under way in China, where Mandarin, as the official language, is becoming the default tongue everywhere.

In North America, its rise also reflects a major shift in immigration. For much of the last century, most Chinese living in the United States and Canada traced their ancestry to a region in the Pearl River Delta that included the district of Taishan. They spoke the Taishanese dialect, which is derived from and somewhat similar to Cantonese.

Immigration reform in 1965 opened the door to a huge influx of Cantonese speakers from Hong Kong, and Cantonese became the dominant tongue. But since the 1990s, the vast majority of new Chinese immigrants have come from mainland China, especially Fujian Province, and tend to speak Mandarin along with their regional dialects.

In New York, many Mandarin speakers have flocked to Sunset Park, Brooklyn, and Flushing, Queens, which now rivals Chinatown as a center of Chinese-American business and political might, as well as culture and cuisine. In Chinatown, most of the newer immigrants have settled outside the historic core west of the Bowery, clustering instead around East Broadway.

“I can’t even order food on East Broadway,” said Jan Lee, 44, a furniture designer who has lived all his life in Chinatown and speaks Cantonese. “They don’t speak English; I don’t speak Mandarin. I’m just as lost as everyone else.”

Now Mandarin is pushing into Chinatown’s heart.

For most of the 100 years that the New York Chinese School, on Mott Street, has offered language classes, nearly all have taught Cantonese. Last year, the numbers of Cantonese and Mandarin classes were roughly equal. And this year, Mandarin classes outnumber Cantonese three to one, even though most students are from homes where Cantonese is spoken, said the principal, Kin S. Wong.

Some Cantonese-speaking parents are deciding it is more important to point their children toward the future than the past — their family’s native dialect — even if that leaves them unable to communicate well with relatives in China.

“I figure if they have to acquire a language, I wanted them to have Mandarin because it makes it easier when they go into the workplace,” said Jennifer Ng, whose 5-year-old daughter studies Mandarin at the language school of the Church of the Transfiguration, a Roman Catholic parish on Mott Street where nearly half the classes are devoted to Mandarin. Her 8-year-old son takes Cantonese, but only because there is no English-speaking Mandarin teacher for his age group.

“Can I tell you the truth?” she said. “They hate it! But it’s important for the future.” Until recently, Sunday Masses at Transfiguration were said in Cantonese. The church now offers two in Mandarin and only one in Cantonese. And as the arrivals from mainland China become old-timers, “we are beginning to have Mandarin funerals,” said the Rev. Raymond Nobiletti, the Cantonese-speaking pastor.

At the Chinese Consolidated Benevolent Association, which has been the unofficial government of Chinatown for generations and conducts its business in Cantonese, the president, Justin Yu, said he is the first whose mother tongue is Mandarin to lead the 126-year-old organization. Though he has been taking Cantonese lessons in order to keep up at association meetings, his pronunciation is sometimes a source of hilarity for his colleagues, he said.

“No matter what,” he added, laughing, “you have to admire my courage.”

But even his association is being surpassed in influence by Fujianese organizations, said Professor Kwong of Hunter College.

Longtime residents seem less threatened than wistful. Though he is known around Chinatown for what he calls his “legendarily bad” Cantonese, Paul Lee, 59, said it pained him that the dialect was disappearing from the place where his family has lived for more than a century.

“It may be a dying language,” he acknowledged. “I just hate to say that.”

But he pointed out that the changes were a natural part of an evolving immigrant neighborhood: Just as Cantonese sidelined Taishanese, so, too, is Mandarin replacing Cantonese.

Mr. Wong, the principal of the New York Chinese School, said he had tried to adjust to the subtle shifts during his 40 years in Chinatown. When he arrived in 1969, he walked into a coffee shop and placed his order in Cantonese. Other patrons looked at him oddly.

“They said, ‘Where you from?’ “ he recalled. “ ‘Why you speak Cantonese?’ ” They were from Taishan, he said, so he switched to Taishanese and everyone was happy.

“And now I speak Mandarin better than Cantonese,” he added with a chuckle. “So, Chinatown — it’s always changing.”

 

[Cigarband]

Jean Harlowe's accent is Hollywood's version of a tough New York dame.

By way of her hometown of Kansas City MO.

 

[docneg]

The idea that there are pockets of Appalachia in which Elizabethan English is still spoken has been largely discredited in recent years. For a brief overview of this see http://www9.georgetown.edu/faculty/zanuttir/Appalachian%20project/whatis.html Although the West Virginia Division of Culture and History's website still carries this misinformation, the source used is from 1969. Appalachian English is recognised as a valid dialect in its own right, in which many words and usages of non-standard English survive- including some from the Elizabethan era- but it isn't Elizabethan English.

As a native West Virginian, I can tell you: 'taint no Elizee-beethan talkin' done 'round here!