ALL REPRO R.A.F. Irvin type jackets

[Sloan1874]

According to the label in the late War jacket the jacket was made in Bridgnorth, which is long way from Scotland!
Here's another label from their site which states the jacket was made by A.M. Clothing Co. If the jacket was actually made by Aero what is going on? The patent no. on the label was registered by Irvin Air Chute in 1932!

Well, A.M. Clothing is simply Aero Military Clothing - not too much of a leap there - and if we're going to talk about sins of location, then what about Seattle-based Goodwear's A-2 label:



Uh oh, right continent, wrong state there, Mr Chapman.

And, Greek-maker, Bill Kelso's label is several time zones away from its place of origin:



Eastman do it as well with the Boston, Mass labels. The point, I guess, is that the main makers like to play a little with geography in the name of a little visual authenticity, not just Aero. [huh]

 

[Smithy]

As promised some closeups of the new "Lightning" zipper.
Jon - Aces High - has not only done a terrific job by recreating this authentic prewar zipper - but also by installing it in my beloved Irvin.



I also include a couple of pics so you gentlemen can follow the progress of creases and look of my Irvin after a year of hard use.

Now THAT'S an Irvin repro!

Hopefully not too long to be wearing an Irvin in a certain garden in Gjentofte again, wearing Irvins and drinking good scotch


The Aero one looks beautifully made but it looks "off" to me if you're looking at it from the point of view of a replica of an Irvin. The outside hide finish just doesn't look close to an original's. Pattern looks a lot better than the old ones but still looks strange, however that could be due to that hide draping differently than what you see on originals and high end repro Irvins because its been tanned and prepared quite differently from an original or high accuracy offering.

It will be spectacularly well made but I still can't help thinking that if a punter is looking to spend this sort of money on an Irvin then at this level accuracy will be a major concern to 9 out of 10 of them. To use an analogy, if you were after a B-15 jacket and were going to spend Buzz Rickson money on one, would you spend $500 for an Alpha B-15 or would you buy a Buzz Rickson one?

 

[Sloan1874]

That would be because it's a red skin hide. If you see the new chestnut hide next to original multi-panel, it's very similar.

 

[Smithy]

That would be because it's a red skin hide. If you see the new chestnut hide next to original multi-panel, it's very similar.

Having had a look at that on their website, it's better but I still think their Irvins aren't at the same level as ELC or Jon's.

Don't get me wrong, beautiful looking jackets and they'll be fantastically well made but as this thread is named, I personally am looking at it from a repro perspective. I have a large interest in the RAF's Fighter Command in WWII and for me, I'm interested in accuracy, more so than the average Joe Bloggs on the street.

Sloan, it's pretty obvious from your posts here that you're a huge Aero fan and that's great (please don't think I'm having a go at you as I'm honestly not for this fact). You love the workmanship, the customer service, the fact you can go there and talk directly to them, try things on and you've built up a strong relationship with the maker, but being a massive "brand fan" means that you're a different beast from a lot of buyers and you'll purchase on different criteria.

Once you start getting into the 700 quid market with Irvins you're only dealing with less than a handful of makers and it's a very, very, very niche market and one where accuracy comes into play as a much more important purchasing criteria. Most people purchasing at this level are not just casual buyers but either have a strong interest in the jacket from a historic perspective or are even reenactors. Otherwise they'd go off and get a superbly made Cirrus.

I'll use another analogy which I think is appropriate. I'm planning on picking up an A-2 in the near future. I want something reasonably accurate but I'm not a fanatic when it comes to A-2s so I'm currently considering an ELC or BK house one. But would I pay Good Wear money for one of these? No, of course not. And this is the only problem I see with these new Aero Irvins. It's the equivalent of paying Good Wear money for an ELC house A-2.

Post pics when you get yours as I for one would like to see them and I'm sure you'll love it.

 

[Xenophon]

It's indeed a difficult market segment as price wise they're on the very edge between collectors willing to pay a premium for accuracy/authenticity and people who just want to purchase a nice, quality jacket and have other demands. Two very different customer categories and you can't be everything to everyone, especially as the willingness to compromise falls away beyond a certain price. I wonder which direction Aero is going to take there or indeed if they will pick a direction. Also plays with their other products.

 

[aswatland]

Now THAT'S an Irvin repro!

Hopefully not too long to be wearing an Irvin in a certain garden in Gjentofte again, wearing Irvins and drinking good scotch


The Aero one looks beautifully made but it looks "off" to me if you're looking at it from the point of view of a replica of an Irvin. The outside hide finish just doesn't look close to an original's. Pattern looks a lot better than the old ones but still looks strange, however that could be due to that hide draping differently than what you see on originals and high end repro Irvins because its been tanned and prepared quite differently from an original or high accuracy offering.

It will be spectacularly well made but I still can't help thinking that if a punter is looking to spend this sort of money on an Irvin then at this level accuracy will be a major concern to 9 out of 10 of them. To use an analogy, if you were after a B-15 jacket and were going to spend Buzz Rickson money on one, would you spend $500 for an Alpha B-15 or would you buy a Buzz Rickson one?

Well said Tim.

 

[aswatland]

Well, A.M. Clothing is simply Aero Military Clothing - not too much of a leap there - and if we're going to talk about sins of location, then what about Seattle-based Goodwear's A-2 label:



Uh oh, right continent, wrong state there, Mr Chapman.

And, Greek-maker, Bill Kelso's label is several time zones away from its place of origin:



Eastman do it as well with the Boston, Mass labels. The point, I guess, is that the main makers like to play a little with geography in the name of a little visual authenticity, not just Aero. [huh]

Sloan you are missing the point here. Anyone knows repro makers copy original maker labels, but Irvins were never made in Bridgnorth! My questions are where did these labels come from and why is Aero using them in their jackets? Are you sure AM really stands for Aero military clothing rather than Air Ministry Clothing?

 

[Sloan1874]

I guess what we see here is the intersection of two types of 'customer' military repros: those who absolutely must have a stitch-for-stitch reproduction of jacket, right down to the type of snaps on the collar or buckle on the belt; and those who look for something which is beautifully made and faithful to the original style, but don't lose sleep at night on whether or not the flaps on their pockets are perfect.
I was going to buy an Irvin when I first decided to invest in a high end jacket, and was actually put off ELC by the whole 're-enactment' costume vibe of the web site, but that's just me and I get now that it's designed to appeal to a different niche. Don't get me wrong, though, I think it's fantastic that John Chapman and Aces High are out there doing their thing, and the pieces they turn out are works of art, but a year-long wait and grand cost are too rich for my blood.
Ultimately, though, I will get an Irvin that that will look great, it will fit me perfectly - as Smithy says, they're on my doorstep, friendly and accessible, so it's not hard to develop a good rapport, and removes a lot of the fear out of chucking £700 at somebody.
As far as the label goes, well, I'm told it is absolutely an Aero-owned label that was designed for a ill-fated project a couple of years ago by the previous regime and the design was even approved by a FL-er. [huh]
But let's not lose perspective here, eh? This niche is probably in the best state it's been in for ages - we have makers striving to make better and better jackets to try and catch our eye, we're being spoiled for choice! And as a side note, I've only ever met one person in real life wearing an A-2, and that was a snapper who had an Aero 38 contract. Looked great, fitted him perfectly, and he had no idea that he was wearing was called an A-2 or its background. Made me laugh that did.

 

[Xenophon]

Was there ever an 'A.M. Clothing Company of Great Britain ltd.'? Because that's what the full text says. You're the expert but don't the jackets usually show a depitction of the crown and beneath the A.M. abbreviation for 'Air Ministry'? My guess is that Sloan's interpretation will be closer to the mark. Same as the 'Messerschmitt' jacket by Eastman which has a label showing what's supposed to be an eagle and below that (in gothic script....) 'Luftwaffe' and underneath 'Echt Leder Flieger Jacke' (which btw is a crude translation of 'genuine leather pilot's jacket' that no german would use and lower still 'Ostmann Leder Kleidung'. Illustrative of poor taste to me, wonder why they didn't put a swastika on it.....

 

[Spitfire]

Please allow me to chip in here.
When you have a great interest in the historic perspective of the Irvin (as I do) and find a supplier with the same burning interest, it's quite easy "to chuck out £700 for a jacket - and it's not to "somebody", Sloan1874.
Jon at Aces High keeps a very close and personal communication with the people he's making jackets for.
Measures are discussed, drawings send back and forth, samples of fleece, nothing goes into making before the client knows all and says yes.
Just like you have with the great people at AERO.
In my case Jon even agreed to make some small alterations on the collar, because I thought it to be too large. No problem - none other than getting a box large enough to send the jacket to France, where Jon lives. Besides altering the collar Jon even offered to change the front zipper to his new Lightning repro with the stopper box - for free!!!!! Just because he knew, that I wanted the jacket to be historical correct and he was sorry that he could not have offered me that zipper, when my jacket was originally made. Now that's what I call service! And dedication!
There is absolutely no doubt in my mind: Aces High jackets are not cheap. But they are worth every penny. Thanks to the dedication and craftsmanship Jon puts into every one of them.
Luckily there are audiences for the almost Irvins at a fair price as well as the exact stitch by stitch afficionados.
Isn't that just great?

 

[Sloan1874]

I agree with you 100 per cent! I think that it's great people like Jon are out there keeping all the other makers honest and raising the bar. And when I said "chucking £700 at somebody", I wasn't being glib about the likes of JC or Jon, I was talking about buying jackets in general and referring to my queasiness at the idea of buying 'long distance' and hoping: a. I've got my measurements right, b. I've understood properly what they're offering.

 

[Plumbline]

Craig,

If the project re. the Irvin Label was " The Ultimate Irvin Repro" piece worked up by Will Lauder and a number of others ( including some prominant FLers) then the label design selected was much more in keeping with the original label with the crown and " Air Ministry" lettering ... in fact one of these was mocked by Major Major as being ridiculous because they had misspelt IRVIN as IRVING ... until it was pointed out ( by Andrew I believe .... who has forgotten more about this particular jacket than I will ever know !) that this was actually factually correct.

I have owned two Aero Irvins ... one 2003 was very plasticy ( a really heavy topcoat on the sheepskin) the other from @ 2006 was a REALLY nice jacket ... I know people complained about the sleeves but I never found them a problem to be honest ... although I can see what they mean having tried various originals.

I'm sure Aero's latest offering will be a GREAT jacket ... they make GREAT jackets ( as do all of the high end manufacturers) but I think the point here is we shouldn't look for the sort of detail you get with Aces High and Mr Chapman ..... but it's a level of accuracy which comes at a price ( these jackets are labours of love and dedication IMHO ... but not what I want it's true).

I guesse the only "true" IRVIN is that produced by Aviation Leathercraft ... because they own the rights to the name ... but it's about as close to a WW2 Irvin as a banana ....... but of the repro's it's hard to see anyone beating Aces High currently although some come close.

 

[Sloan1874]

I wouldn't quibble with any of that, PL. So, was Andrew involved with the evolution of this label in the first place? I say that because there are only a few people around here who have depth knowledge and resources to do give that sort of advice. That would be ironic it was.

 

[aswatland]

I do know who was involved in the evolution of the label. I wondering if these people were ever asked if this label could used on Aero Irvins.

 

[Plumbline]

I wouldn't quibble with any of that, PL. So, was Andrew involved with the evolution of this label in the first place? I say that because there are only a few people around here who have depth knowledge and resources to do give that sort of advice. That would be ironic it was.

No not Andrew ... although ISTR Andrew being involved in discussions around the project a couple of years ago ... at least his name was mentioned ... the main collaborator isn't a FLer, although some FLers were involved in the discussions. The object was to produce " The Most Authentic Irvin Repro Ever" through a rigorous process of reverse engineering ... they had selected a specific Irvin Airchute model.

 

[Otter]

Please, just don't go there, I don't think I could stand that can of worms being opened again!:eeek:

 

[Sloan1874]

No not Andrew ... although ISTR Andrew being involved in discussions around the project a couple of years ago ... at least his name was mentioned ... the main collaborator isn't a FLer, although some FLers were involved in the discussions. The object was to produce " The Most Authentic Irvin Repro Ever" through a rigorous process of reverse engineering ... they had selected a specific Irvin Airchute model.

Unexpectedly I was over in Aero's neck of the woods, so dropped by to add the final touches to my own Irvin. They were a bit mystified about this label business because they were sure Andrew was involved in the project, along with that second contributor. They were also very sure that the pro formas on the labels were in order. Ach, maybe it was a long time ago. [huh]

 

[Edward]

Ouch. When did the price of the Irvin repros shoot up so much? Last I looked, they were only in the region of GBP500 a pop, and that was early 2011!

I had a vague recollection there was another start-up business around the same time as Aces High - went by the name of Flyboys, or something along those lines? Was there another one, or am I just confusing names somehow?

ETA: I've just looked at the ALC website - they're all up just over the £600 now too. Has something happened in the last couple of years that has made them suddenly significantly more expensive to produce, or was it just one of those price-rises that was held off for a long time so it hit hard when it happened?

 

[tonypaj]

Please, just don't go there, I don't think I could stand that can of worms being opened again!:eeek:

Hmmm. Could someone please fumigate all of these leather jacket cans of worms. Then make an autopsy and let it all rot. No Pecards needed.

 

[Edward]

These new Aero Irvins are a damn sight better than their old ones but to my eyes they're still not quite at the same level as an ELC and definitely not Jon's ones. I also wonder if someone is getting into this sort of price bracket for an Irvin then accuracy becomes an increasing factor and for that reason they might wish to fork out the extra 70 quid for an ELC 4 panel.

Nice jackets and they'll be beautifully made but for me at least, they don't make me feel like rushing off to offload my ELC to get one just yet.

It'd be interesting to see an in-depth review across the various Irvins available now. The high-end ones, at least. (I don't think it'd be fair to compare a WPG against these, as it was, as I understand it, created to provide a much lower-cost alternative for those looking for a jacket for living history impressions, without the funds to spend on the established jacket-makers' stuff. I also would discount Aviation Leather Craft, for all their "battle of Britain Memorial Flight" status et cetera. I still think it's a terrible shame that the only jacket that can legally carry the Irvin name these days is in fact probably the least accurate repro of all.... but hey ho.). It seems these days you're into GBP700 as an entry-level price to the decent repro market (yeah, I know, decent is a loaded term here and will mean different things to different people...), which can run up to closing in on the cool grand for the ELC Devon Fleece Irvin. While there is definitely a value for me in things like being sure of the fit, quality of the hide and so on, I'm a little bit flexible when it comes to accuracy. A lot would come down to the price differential. £100 doesn't seem an enormous stretch for some details; £300 if the only difference is a better zip-pull wouldn't be worth it to me. Still... even if I end up priced out of the market in a few years, it's nice to know that this sort of stuff is still in production. TFL certainly changed my mind on Irvins. I hated them before I started hanging out here, but that was because all I'd really seen where the ALC ads and promo in which they claimed to be the "only true Irvin" (technically, as a matter of TM law, yeah....), not anything of the standard of the ELCs, the Aces High, or to which Aero aspire with their evolving new designs.

I've got a nice ELC 42 pattern, which I bought used three years ago, saving a chunk over the then new price of £500. It was fairly new (seemed unworn), so I think it was a recently manufactured item then. I'm not sure if they've changed the patterns (or hardware, zips especially - I remember those are difficult to get right on Irvins) since then. I'm in no rush to get rid of that either. I don't foresee me being looking for another Irvin for a year or two, but I know I'd like one in another pattern, maybe with black fleece, or the CC hood, later on. It'll be interesting to see how the market evolves.