ALL ORIGINAL Irvin RAF type Jackets - Loving that Wolf in sheeps' clothing!

[aswatland]

The answer is no. Irvin suits were not just issued to aircrew in Bomber Command but also to those in fighter Command until 1943, the Fleet Air Arm, Coastal Command and others were issued to some USAAF crews in the UK as well as to Russian pilots. Not all bomber crewmen were issued with Irvin suits. Many were issued with Sidcot suits, so using the numbers of Bomber Command aircrew to derive any sort of reliable calculation of how many Irvins were issued in the war will not provide anything like an accurate estimation. Remember Irvins were made as suits, although the trousers were often recycled to make more jackets later in the war. Sadly the size of each of the dozens of AM contracts for Irvins is currently unknown.

 

[daw]

Sounds like many 10's of thousands of Irvins must have been made, though, correct?

 

[aswatland]

Of course, but thenactual figure is unknown!

 

[Cooper A-2]

I was watching an old BBC documentary on Bomber Command this morning, and everyone seemed to be wearing Irvin jackets; the commentator said there were more than 55,000 casualties in WWII. I did a little research on Bomber Command and found the following online:

55,573 killed out of a total of 125,000 aircrew (a 44.4 percent death rate), a further 8,403 were wounded in action and 9,838 became prisoners of war

I hate to waste anyone's time if this has been asked already, but is there information as to how many Irvin flight jackets were made during the war? I assume all the flight crew were all issued with one of these jackets-is that a valid assumption? If so, there were at least 125,000 of these issued. Certainly, they don't seem to be too rare on ebay, although in great condition I'm sure they are quite rare.

Nice threads...
I also believe that a lot of pilots or flying personel lost their beloved Irvin after a fight and a subsequetial dip or silk " let down ".
Surely an Irvin is not your best asset when you want to swim or evacuate fast .
If the flyiers made it back to base, surely they got another one issued...I presume.
So lots of them I guess.

 

[Corsair42]

With Fighter Command, commonwealth and allied air forces plus Royal Navy aviators also getting issued Irvins there could have been several hundred thousand made and issued. However, then, as now, on completion of service, issued kit is required to be handed back, much of it destroyed or recycled and a lot of aircrew probably did as they were told. This would leave very few 'storied' Irvins around. I remember my dad telling me that post-war there were adverts in papers selling ex-issue Irvins for peanuts for general worker and he had one which I vaguely remember. All in all, despite hundreds of thousands being issued, the likelihood is that most were destroyed and sold as surplus.

 

[Cooper A-2]

With Fighter Command, commonwealth and allied air forces plus Royal Navy aviators also getting issued Irvins there could have been several hundred thousand made and issued. However, then, as now, on completion of service, issued kit is required to be handed back, much of it destroyed or recycled and a lot of aircrew probably did as they were told. This would leave very few 'storied' Irvins around. I remember my dad telling me that post-war there were adverts in papers selling ex-issue Irvins for peanuts for general worker and he had one which I vaguely remember. All in all, despite hundreds of thousands being issued, the likelihood is that most were destroyed and sold as surplus.

++++

 

[aswatland]

With Fighter Command, commonwealth and allied air forces plus Royal Navy aviators also getting issued Irvins there could have been several hundred thousand made and issued. However, then, as now, on completion of service, issued kit is required to be handed back, much of it destroyed or recycled and a lot of aircrew probably did as they were told. This would leave very few 'storied' Irvins around. I remember my dad telling me that post-war there were adverts in papers selling ex-issue Irvins for peanuts for general worker and he had one which I vaguely remember. All in all, despite hundreds of thousands being issued, the likelihood is that most were destroyed and sold as surplus.

I agree with this, but not the assertion of "hundreds of thousands" being issued unless you have rock solid evidence for it based on the number of jackets produced under each of the many Irvin contracts.

 

[rocketeer]

With Fighter Command, commonwealth and allied air forces plus Royal Navy aviators also getting issued Irvins there could have been several hundred thousand made and issued. However, then, as now, on completion of service, issued kit is required to be handed back, much of it destroyed or recycled and a lot of aircrew probably did as they were told. This would leave very few 'storied' Irvins around. I remember my dad telling me that post-war there were adverts in papers selling ex-issue Irvins for peanuts for general worker and he had one which I vaguely remember. All in all, despite hundreds of thousands being issued, the likelihood is that most were destroyed and sold as surplus.

A workmate told me he bought one (A suit if I remember correctly, it was over 40 years ago) for 10/s, thats 50p, back in 1946 and an ex military Indian twin for £5.

I agree with this, but not the assertion of "hundreds of thousands" being issued unless you have rock solid evidence for it based on the number of jackets produced under each of the many Irvin contracts.

Thats a bit harsh Andrew! He's not on trial for his life for the sake of a few jackets
Watched an old episode of American Pickers recently, the one where they find that horrible VW Von Dutch built motorbike. They pulled out an old Coastal Command Irvin out and one of them supposedly bought it for $300. Has that been discussed before?

 

[aswatland]

Not meant to be harsh, just wanting evidence to back up an assertion. It is the historian in me!LOL

 

[Doctor Damage]

Not meant to be harsh, just wanting evidence to back up an assertion. It is the historian in me!LOL

Just like with USAF nylon jackets, no public records were kept on how many were made or by who, or when, etc. The further back you go in time, the fuzzier everything gets, and the number of things in sharp focus shrinks rapidly.

 

[Corsair42]

I agree with this, but not the assertion of "hundreds of thousands" being issued unless you have rock solid evidence for it based on the number of jackets produced under each of the many Irvin contracts.

I'm hardly going to whip out Air Ministry records for each contract, however it's fairly self explanatory. Irvins were being issued long before the war started, pretty much all aircrew would have been issued with one, possibly, in odd cases, even a second or third over their career through loss or damage. With the advent of war and the establishment of a vastly increased fighter and bomber command, the equipping of commonwealth and allied air forces (thousands of free French, Polish and Czech airmen alone), over the course of a six year war (and irvin production didn't end on VE day) the amount of Irvins produced would easily have been well into six figures. As I said, on demob, the majority of these would have been returned to stores as per regulations. You only have to look at what the MOD/RAF did to aircraft, Spitfires, Hurricanes and Lancasters that are now priceless, were broken up for scrap in the thousands despite their contribution and historical significance and there are literally a handful of these aircraft left. With regards to jackets and uniform, what wasn't destroyed was pretty much given away as surplus.

Probably worth quoting the stats from an earlier post of 55000 of 125000 bomber command personnel - that's over a hundred thousand issued Irvins before you take into account Fighter Command, Fleet Air Arm, Coastal Command and the attached allied air forces, some of whom were uniformed by the US (see pics of Antoine De Saint Exupery in an A2 in the famous people in flight jackets thread) some by the UK and some a mixture of both, and not forgetting Field Marshal Montgomery and his favoured non-Army issue cold weather outer garment. The Luftwaffe's Adolf Galland doesn't count as I'm fairly sure he didn't sign his irvin out from stores.

 

[aswatland]

Thank you for confirming that hundreds of thousands of Irvins is your opinion. Without the actual production figures from the AM contracts the number of Irvins produced from the early 1930s through to the end of the War can only be guessed at. The number of aircrew in Bomber Command for example does not equate to the number of Irvins issued to Bomber Command aircrew. It is a myth that all aircrew were issued Irvin suits. They were not. Many were issued with Sidcot suits, the 1930, 1940 and 1941 (wired) patterns. It is quite rare to see photos of bomber crew in all Irvin suits even early in the War. Of course replacement Irvins were issued to those whose original one was damaged or lost. Of course many Irvins were refurbished and re-issued.

 

[Corsair42]

Just had a chat with the old man about the surplus irvin jackets that were sold in the early 60s, he said they were pretty much unissued condition and were £6. Adjusting for inflation to 2017 prices thats roughly around £120 in today's money. In terms of production scale and cost, given the relative abundance of skilled manufacturing personnel, the production means to deliver hides in the 40s vs 2017 they wouldnt have been viewed as particularly high value items. The abundance and cheapness of Grade A/Unissued jackets in the postwar period likely reflects this.

While it may be rare to see photos of crews in irvin suits I imagine a jacket at least would have been essential for anything other than lower level, short duration training sorties. In every photo I've seen of aircrew, regardless of the outer layer, they were always in working blues underneath, including tie - the equivalent to today's RAF No 1 dress minus medals, (No 2s for the army). Outside of everything else required of them, keeping those dress standards in the circumstance, without the modern convenience of washing machines, tumble dryers and electric irons in some cases must have been fairly challenging.

 

[Corsair42]

 

[Corsair42]

An example of commonwealth aircrew, above photo is Sgt LO Lynch DFM from Jamaica in 1943 commissioned following this photo in 1944. There was a BBC documentary about commonwealth aircrew some years back, it's possibly available on YouTube.

 

[Corsair42]

Commandant René Mouchotte DFC, (21 August 1914 – 27 August 1943) Free French Air Force

 

[Corsair42]

On the right is American Flt Lt Chesley G. Peterson. Peterson became Commander of 71 Eagle Squadron RAF and the youngest Squadron Commander in the RAF at the time at 21. Peterson later joined the USAAF, commanding the 4th Fighter Group during WW2, rising to the rank of Major General before retiring in 1970. Among his awards were the RAF's DFC and the US Air Medal. Not only was he one of the few pilots to have flown both British and American fighter aircraft in battle, he would also have been one of the very small group to have been officially issued both an Irvin jacket and an A2.

 

[Corsair42]

For statistics sake, probably worth mentioning that the Eagle Squadrons, commonwealth air forces, free French, Czechs and Polish etc, in terms of numbers, for the most part would not have been 'in addition to' the RAFs Orbat, rather they would have formed part of it.

 

[shadowrider]

I am thinking of installing air vents on a shearling lined jacket I have.
I'm not sure if I should place a leather patch over the wool, or have the rivet just sit on the shearling.
Could any Irving jacket owner check (or better yet post a pic of) the armpit vents on the inside side of their jacket?

 

[aswatland]

Here is a picture of the underarm vents on a 1940 Wareings Irvin in my collection.