Adult Boys

[LizzieMaine]

Not part of your immediate experience, no. But it was a part of the world you grew up in regardless of whether or not you personally saw it. That much is clear.

And headhunters lived in Papua when I was growing up too, but that doesn't mean headhunting was any part of the world I grew up in.

There was no society of people I had any contact with, acquaintance with, or exposure to in which drunkenness or drug abuse were socially-encouraged. A culture in which drunkenness is celebrated and encouraged, in which drugs are considered some kind of boon to creativity, is completely and utterly irrelevant to the one in which I was raised, just as the culture of Papuan headhunters is completely and utterly irrelevant to mine. That much is clear.

And forced to choose between the two, I'd go with the headhunters.

I'll come right out and say that I'm not someone who believes in cultural relativism. Not at all. I think a culture that promotes and encourages substance abuse of any kind is degenerate, and I'm not afraid to stand up and say so. A culture that looks at drunkenness and drug abuse with a wink and a nudge and a chuckle is degenerate. The saloon culture of 1900 and the bootlegger culture of 1925 and the dope culture of 1968 and the booze and drug culture of today were and are degenerate. I make no bones about being judgemental on these points. If you *aren't* judgemental about such things, you're part of the problem.

 

[jlee562]

I really don't see what the big deal is about simply accepting the objectively fact that your anecdotal experience is not applicable to the world at large.

Your argument here is fundamentally flawed, as you're using your anecdotal experience to make a comparison to today's world. There is no modern "culture" in the US "in which drunkenness is celebrated and encouraged." While you may feel that a certain segment of the younger population promotes such a "culture," it's just not true at the larger level. As evidenced by the fact that we still have ad campaigns against drunk driving. The US hasn't brought the drinking age down to 18 like most of the rest of the world. You're conflating permissiveness among certain segments of the population as a wider "culture" of tolerance. But you will still get fired if you go to work drunk. You will still get arrested if you drive drunk. Yes, there is a certain permissiveness towards drinking when you're young. But that does not make a "culture" which encourages people to be drunk. People don't post drunk photos on facebook because they want to show off how drunk they are. They do it because social media has enabled a culture of sharing these moments, whether drunk or not. In other words, what you speak of is not the product of a "culture of intoxication," but a social media culture which happens to share drunk moments.

As far as drugs and creativity goes, while I don't advocate any individual partake in any illicit substance, for the record, it should be pointed out that your personal incredulity is just that. Your own opinion. Carl Sagan, for example, was a noted user of marijuana. Although he didn't reveal this publicly during his lifetime, he famously published an essay, "Marihuana Reconsidered" in 1969, under the pseudonym Mr. X.

An excerpt:

There is a myth about such highs: the user has an illusion of great insight, but it does not survive scrutiny in the morning. I am convinced that this is an error, and that the devastating insights achieved when high are real insights; the main problem is putting these insights in a form acceptable to the quite different self that we are when we’re down the next day. Some of the hardest work I’ve ever done has been to put such insights down on tape or in writing. The problem is that ten even more interesting ideas or images have to be lost in the effort of recording one. It is easy to understand why someone might think it’s a waste of effort going to all that trouble to set the thought down, a kind of intrusion of the Protestant Ethic. But since I live almost all my life down I’ve made the effort – successfully, I think. Incidentally, I find that reasonably good insights can be remembered the next day, but only if some effort has been made to set them down another way. If I write the insight down or tell it to someone, then I can remember it with no assistance the following morning; but if I merely say to myself that I must make an effort to remember, I never do.

I find that most of the insights I achieve when high are into social issues, an area of creative scholarship very different from the one I am generally known for. I can remember one occasion, taking a shower with my wife while high, in which I had an idea on the origins and invalidities of racism in terms of gaussian distribution curves. It was a point obvious in a way, but rarely talked about. I drew the curves in soap on the shower wall, and went to write the idea down. One idea led to another, and at the end of about an hour of extremely hard work I found I had written eleven short essays on a wide range of social, political, philosophical, and human biological topics. Because of problems of space, I can’t go into the details of these essays, but from all external signs, such as public reactions and expert commentary, they seem to contain valid insights. I have used them in university commencement addresses, public lectures, and in my books.

Again, I'm not promoting or advocating the use of marijuana. But if someone as intelligent and well spoken as Carl Sagan, believed that marijuana contributed to some of his greatest insights, isn't it just possible that it can be a "boon to creativity?"

Or to put it another way, I really like the music of Bob Dylan and The Beatles.

 

[LizzieMaine]

I'm not going to pursue this discussion with you any further except to warn you, or anyone else here, against bringing up marijuana with me, now or ever. A loved one has just spent four months in a mental hospital as a direct consequence of that filthy stinking poison, and it is a very, very sensitive topic with me. Rather than tell you exactly what I think of your "arguments," I'm just going to shut the computer off and go to bed.

 

[jlee562]

The nice thing about science is that it's true regardless of your opinion.

 

[V.C. Brunswick]

What is Spring Break? I mean, I know the concept of the "go somewhere with a beach and get stupidly drunk while half naked" nonsense, but what's the basis of the holiday? Have US Colleges done the sensible thing and fixed a date for Easter?

Of late I've found myself watching the show Booze Britain and it seems like it's "spring break" every Friday and Saturday nite in any city centre in the UK to an extent I haven't quite seen here in the US.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L5OyubYyv3Q

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1--IwruE9cI

 

[Otis]

But somehow I was raised in a culture which used none of these things.....we were raised to believe that the idea of drunkenness of any kind, whether by liquor or by drugs, was shameful and disgraceful.

I find the sociology of this outlook interesting, chiefly because it's shared by ethnic groups that tend to excel long term.

Case in point, I was listening to a lecture by a Rabbi who casually mentioned that middle-class Jews disdain drunkenness. "Why?" says I. Because we're studious, bookish people who revere 'the life of the mind', and to intentionally impair the mind is abhorrent, he said. Or words to that effect. And if you look at Jewish cultural attainments, it's pretty obvious that they're influential far beyond their numbers, demographically speaking.
I suppose the same could be said about Asians -- even moreso than Jews, they dominate the make up of upper tier academia's student body. This has presented a problem for Stanford, for example, in that they've had to reverse-discriminate against them and save a few places for not-so-bright Whitey and others.

Broadly speaking then, one thing Jews and Asians have in common is a sense of dedication, discipline and an insistence on top performance from their children. This would leave little room for recreational intoxication.

 

[Foxer55]

jlee562,

I really don't see what the big deal is about simply accepting the objectively fact that your anecdotal experience is not applicable to the world at large.

Your argument here is fundamentally flawed, as you're using your anecdotal experience to make a comparison to today's world. There is no modern "culture" in the US "in which drunkenness is celebrated and encouraged." While you may feel that a certain segment of the younger population promotes such a "culture," it's just not true at the larger level. As evidenced by the fact that we still have ad campaigns against drunk driving. The US hasn't brought the drinking age down to 18 like most of the rest of the world. You're conflating permissiveness among certain segments of the population as a wider "culture" of tolerance. But you will still get fired if you go to work drunk. You will still get arrested if you drive drunk. Yes, there is a certain permissiveness towards drinking when you're young. But that does not make a "culture" which encourages people to be drunk. People don't post drunk photos on facebook because they want to show off how drunk they are. They do it because social media has enabled a culture of sharing these moments, whether drunk or not. In other words, what you speak of is not the product of a "culture of intoxication," but a social media culture which happens to share drunk moments.

As far as drugs and creativity goes, while I don't advocate any individual partake in any illicit substance, for the record, it should be pointed out that your personal incredulity is just that. Your own opinion. Carl Sagan, for example, was a noted user of marijuana. Although he didn't reveal this publicly during his lifetime, he famously published an essay, "Marihuana Reconsidered" in 1969, under the pseudonym Mr. X.

I believe the intent of LM's post was to express a frustration we all have with what is happening in or to our American culture. Whether she used the most appropriate examplars is another matter. I think we can all agree that the culture has drifted away from ideals of being industrious, honestly successful, and self sufficient where there was the wholesome standard of mom, the Flag, and apple pie. We have essentially degenerated into a culture of dependency driven by victimism, narcissism, greed, and self indulgence. Being successful, self sufficient, and openly honest about ourselves and our intentions are now considered a character flaw and a liability. I don't know if this is a time of normal change in a maturing society or whether it will cause permanent negative changes in the future. That's an academic discussion. Personally, the more I see, I don't have much hope for the near term in the years ahead.

 

[HudsonHawk]

Broadly speaking then, one thing Jews and Asians have in common is a sense of dedication, discipline and an insistence on top performance from their children. This would leave little room for recreational intoxication.

I take it you haven't spent much time actually *in* Asia. There's a billion bozos over there, just as there are in pretty much every part of the world. The minute subset you see at Stanford doesn't represent "Asian-ness" any more than Papuan headhunters represent Lizzie's formative years in Maine.

 

[Otis]

I take it you haven't spent much time actually *in* Asia. There's a billion bozos over there, just as there are in pretty much every part of the world. The minute subset you see at Stanford doesn't represent "Asian-ness" any more than Papuan headhunters represent Lizzie's formative years in Maine.

Quite. I had in mind the ones I see, the boat people generation who started little businesses like mini-markets and dry cleaners and whose children are flooding the universities in great numbers. Americans of Asian descent, to be precise.

 

[cpdv]

Just going to say that the part of Maine i'm from Drunkenness is and has been pretty common. The part of the State i'm from has more in the way of Irish and French than the rest. For those of you who may not be familiar with Maine of old local stock you have English, Cornish, Scotch Irish (more inland) and French and Irish in the mill towns and seaports. The places of English and Scotch Irish in particular can be very VERY puritan in their outlook where as the Cornish and Irish fishermen on the coast not so much. I would wager that 85% of the people I know of all ages indulge in THC of some sort. I personally limit my vices to alcohol and tobacco.

 

[jlee562]

jlee562,



I believe the intent of LM's post was to express a frustration we all have with what is happening in or to our American culture. Whether she used the most appropriate examplars is another matter. I think we can all agree that the culture has drifted away from ideals of being industrious, honestly successful, and self sufficient where there was the wholesome standard of mom, the Flag, and apple pie. We have essentially degenerated into a culture of dependency driven by victimism, narcissism, greed, and self indulgence. Being successful, self sufficient, and openly honest about ourselves and our intentions are now considered a character flaw and a liability. I don't know if this is a time of normal change in a maturing society or whether it will cause permanent negative changes in the future. That's an academic discussion. Personally, the more I see, I don't have much hope for the near term in the years ahead.

I've read her posts before and interacted with her once or twice. I believe that there are many (but not all) here who are simply projecting their own grievances about the problems of today and making them generational.

There is a generational debate in this country and it's not new. Before it was millennials, it was Gen X. People said the same thing about Kurt Cobain and Nirvana that people are saying here. Oh, he's just got plaid and ripped jeans! They talk about drugs in the music! Before Gen X it was the hippies. Oh, look at the dirty ponchos they wear! And so much sex and drugs! Before the hippies it was rock and roll. And Rock and roll was "the devil's music!"

So in that sense, I don't see anything new except for the facade. The older generation is complaining about the newer generation. All that's changed is x for y.

As far as the general point goes, first of all, I have no idea what you mean by "our American culture." The skeptic in me sees all sorts of potential undertones in this phrasing, and I don't want to misinterpret you. So I would kindly ask you to clarify what exactly you mean by this phrase.

But, so far as you post goes, I going to have to disagree. I agree that the mom & apple pie standard is gone. I agree that there has been a culture shift. But I don't agree that the values have shifted all that drastically. I'm gonna go back to the Jay Z well on this one too. And look, honestly, I don't like Jay Z. Not only do I not like hip hop, but I think he's a really arrogant dude. But if you listen to Jay Z's songs, he's talking about making money with his music and how hard he works to do so (as the kids say, "hustlin'"). Now sure, fine, maybe being a touring musician isn't considered an industrious job, but it sure is self sufficient. I mean, if there's one thing you can't say about hip hop, it's that it's anti capitalist. Jay Z referenced Cristal and Lexus in the same song. For free! Not as a paid endorsement.

And look, I'm not going to sit here and say that there's not rap music that has, shall we say, a much less refined demeanor towards society at large. And I'm not going to sit here and argue that there aren't people who play the victim, are overly narcissistic, greedy, or self indulgent. All those things exist in our society in spades. I'm not saying it doesn't. But I am saying that's not what the culture, by in large, promotes; and, that it is not the norm.

As long as we're sharing personal experience, my grandfather started the family business in 1942, when a Japanese family was forced to abandon it during internment. He opened his own flower shop in 1946 when the Japanese family returned and he gave them the business back. We still have the "CHINESE AMERICAN FLORIST" sign in the attic. He had to hang it because of all the anti-Japanese racism. My father (and my uncle), my brother, and I, have all worked in that store since we could talk. And that includes getting up at 3 in the morning to go to the flower market, and then working 9-5.

So yeah, my parents cut my tuition check. With money they had because I worked in the store. Is it so easy to say I'm "dependent?"

These folks who you're talking about, the lazy, greedy, narcissistic ones. They aren't me. They're not my friends. And they are completely and utterly irrelevant to the world I inhabit.

 

[Maj.Nick Danger]

jlee562,



I believe the intent of LM's post was to express a frustration we all have with what is happening in or to our American culture. Whether she used the most appropriate examplars is another matter. I think we can all agree that the culture has drifted away from ideals of being industrious, honestly successful, and self sufficient where there was the wholesome standard of mom, the Flag, and apple pie. We have essentially degenerated into a culture of dependency driven by victimism, narcissism, greed, and self indulgence. Being successful, self sufficient, and openly honest about ourselves and our intentions are now considered a character flaw and a liability. I don't know if this is a time of normal change in a maturing society or whether it will cause permanent negative changes in the future. That's an academic discussion. Personally, the more I see, I don't have much hope for the near term in the years ahead.

This calls to mind the old axiom, "History always repeats itself."
Sadly enough, it's true because so many people simply ignore history and the utter failures which certain courses of action have resulted in,..time and time again. One need only look at the history of The Roman Empire for example. Their society "matured" to the point of collapse. It was inevitable as they became more and more decadent and immoral in their day to day lives, and their behavior and attitudes eventually led to their ultimate downfall. I see the same pattern in today's "culture" of both legal and recreational drugs, intoxication, the appalling lack of, and appreciation for real values, and the general debauchery of our so-called "entertainment industry". History is repeating itself once again because the majority of people just choose to ignore the obvious lessons of history so as to let it all happen again, or are simply too lazy to do anything about it. For all our technological, scientific, and creative achievements, we are still the same short-sighted and flawed species. I think the ever present greed and sheer egotism of a segment of the population is the root cause of this inane repetition of our collective history.

 

[V.C. Brunswick]

The only thing people really "learn" from history is that what reinforces or validates their own closely held beliefs.

 

[Benny Holiday]

Just dipping back to the idea of grown men dressing like kids for a moment, Spring is just around the corner here and the oversized shorts, flip-flops and ball caps are about to replace the oversized track suits. A small question comes to mind: Is it really so difficult to tuck a shirt with tails into your trousers kidults? Come on! A forty year old man who can't tuck a long- sleeved shirt into his pants just looks stupid.

 

[jlee562]

History is also replete with those who shouted about the end being nigh, only to be proven wrong time and time again.

I don't tuck my shirt it because I don't want to.* Call me sloppy, or stupid if you wish, but the world turns on.


*well, ok button up shirts with jeans, no. Shirt with suit? obviously yes.

 

[Benny Holiday]

History is also replete with those who shouted about the end being nigh, only to be proven wrong time and time again.

I don't tuck my shirt it because I don't want to.* Call me sloppy, or stupid if you wish, but the world turns on.


*well, ok button up shirts with jeans, no. Shirt with suit? obviously yes.

Which is why I mentioned shirts with tails. I`ve seen blokes at weddings with the bottoms of their shirts hanging out underneath their vests. Like I said before, I wouldn't care less about how stupid they look if only they didn't give me the fish eye because my shirt is properly tucked in.
I wear casual shirts like gabs & alohas out too, but they have straight bottoms not tails.

 

[HudsonHawk]

jlee562,



I believe the intent of LM's post was to express a frustration we all have with what is happening in or to our American culture. Whether she used the most appropriate examplars is another matter. I think we can all agree that the culture has drifted away from ideals of being industrious, honestly successful, and self sufficient where there was the wholesome standard of mom, the Flag, and apple pie. We have essentially degenerated into a culture of dependency driven by victimism, narcissism, greed, and self indulgence. Being successful, self sufficient, and openly honest about ourselves and our intentions are now considered a character flaw and a liability. I don't know if this is a time of normal change in a maturing society or whether it will cause permanent negative changes in the future. That's an academic discussion. Personally, the more I see, I don't have much hope for the near term in the years ahead.

Careful here...narcissism, greed and self-indulgence are what drove many of the industrious, successful and self-sufficient to be such. Not all titans of industry were thinking solely of mom and apple pie.

 

[LizzieMaine]

Just going to say that the part of Maine i'm from Drunkenness is and has been pretty common. The part of the State i'm from has more in the way of Irish and French than the rest. For those of you who may not be familiar with Maine of old local stock you have English, Cornish, Scotch Irish (more inland) and French and Irish in the mill towns and seaports. The places of English and Scotch Irish in particular can be very VERY puritan in their outlook where as the Cornish and Irish fishermen on the coast not so much. I would wager that 85% of the people I know of all ages indulge in THC of some sort. I personally limit my vices to alcohol and tobacco.

You left out the Finns and the Germans, both of whom are heavily represented around here, and who tend to be stern, highly-disciplined folk.

As for me, I was born and raised in the Midcoast, of unapologetically-hardboiled Scotch-Irish descent. I know exactly the kind of people you're talking about, but they were very scarce in my area. We had a few "town drunks," but we all knew who they were, and they weren't looked on with any kind of respect. We didn't hate or harass them -- we pitied them, and helped their families where we could -- but nobody I knew aspired to follow their example. Whenever they were mentioned, it was with a warning of "you go near that stuff, you'll end up just like them."

I was aware of a few people who used pot in high school. A *few*, and they were people that anyone with any sense avoided. And that's all I'll say about that.

We did have a lot of tobacco users in the family, but when I saw that particular substance kill in a variety of gruesome ways just about everyone I had loved growing up, I developed a pretty strong sentiment against it. But even so, as vile as it is, tobacco doesn't turn one into a drunken stumbling fool.

As far as the future of society goes, all I can say is I'm glad I won't be alive to see what'll pass for it in fifty years. It isn't shaping up into a world that I have any interest in being any part of. Today's Generation is in the process of making its bed, and they're the ones that'll have to lie in it.

And I don't just mean millenials, Xers, Yers, Zers, or whatever they want to call themselves -- kids need to stop being so spleeny about themselves. It isn't All About You. Boomers are just as culpable for what we see before us as anyone else. For that matter, the parents of the boomers -- the generation of the Era -- enabled them far more than they should have, so they don't get off free either. When I criticize "Today's Generation" I mean the whole contemporary zeitgeist, the whole "I'll do whatever I want and to hell with you and to hell with whatever collateral social harm results, I come first" attitude. That's the antithesis to everything I was raised to believe in, and I want nothing to do with it.

As for clothes, that's about the least of my concerns. Some of the most morally-bankrupt people in the world today are extremely well-dressed.

 

[Feraud]

jlee562,
I believe the intent of LM's post was to express a frustration we all have with what is happening in or to our American culture. Whether she used the most appropriate examplars is another matter. I think we can all agree that the culture has drifted away from ideals of being industrious, honestly successful, and self sufficient where there was the wholesome standard of mom, the Flag, and apple pie. We have essentially degenerated into a culture of dependency driven by victimism, narcissism, greed, and self indulgence. Being successful, self sufficient, and openly honest about ourselves and our intentions are now considered a character flaw and a liability. I don't know if this is a time of normal change in a maturing society or whether it will cause permanent negative changes in the future. That's an academic discussion. Personally, the more I see, I don't have much hope for the near term in the years ahead.

Unfortunately when I think of the mainstream image representing America today I think-

This is not to say there are not thoughtful, creative, intelligent, democratic, civil minded young and old citizens in this country. There are a many such people working and contributing to their communities.
In terms of our image, I wouldn't be surprised if the rest of the world sees us as a bunch of fat, drunken fratboys, pushing our way to the head of the line.

I don't think it has that much to do with wearing cargo shorts.

 

[Formeruser012523]

All I keep thinking is how the older generation looks at the younger & says: "These kids today." Whilst shaking their heads.

Beginning to understand that mindset...