A2 Re-Dyes.

[Sloan1874]

The practice of re-dying A-2s during World War II intrigues me. For those unfamiliar with it, this was done to russet jackets that needed a bit of tarting up, redyed seal or dark seal, before being reissued.
I know this was a common practice with Aero A-2s, they look fantastic as wear and tear brings through the russet-red tones underneath, but was it common across the whole of contracts? Are there other ones that received this treatment?

 

[Sloan1874]

I suspect this is one for @aswatland.

 

[Boyo]

That may be a question best served on VLJ.. I do like the looks of the re-dyed jackets..

 

[Sloan1874]

Yes, good point.

 

[Sloan1874]

Appears to be that it was a common practice across the board.

 

[Skyhawk]

Yes it was. Later on in the war when jackets were turned in, they were sent back to the depot to be refurbished and they were re dyed seal while there. Some were actually sent back to the original MFG for refurb and re dye. It was done in part because of all the variance in colors that the A-2's had from different MFGs and the USAAF wanted a uniform color for the jackets. It may look cool now but was a travesty in my eyes. If you think of all that beautiful Russet horsehide being basically spray painted over with dye, sometimes with the knits and liner getting oversprayed a bit. I have seen some sloppy re dye jobs. An interesting practice that I agree resulted in some cool looking jackets today.

 

[Seb Lucas]

I'm very curious about the process. I remember reading somewhere that the jackets were just hung up on a hanger and sprayed by hand - can that be right? I wonder if the knits were taped over or covered in some way.

 

[ducatimonster]

My father had a dry cleaner and leather cleaning business 35 years ago and yes, the leather jackets were just hung up on a hanger in a closed ventilated room and then sprayed by hand with a pistol and a compressor. The painting material was some kind of white liquid. I remember I saw this process many times when I was a child. The knits were protected with paper.
Final color was always a bit darker than the original and finish a bit shiny at the beginning. ( in fact this was not for changing colour but for leather cleaning and care )
Cannot tell about the A2 but this was how it was done 35 years ago.
Regards
Joan

 

[Skyhawk]

My father had a dry cleaner and leather cleaning business 35 years ago and yes, the leather jackets were just hung up on a hanger in a closed ventilated room and then sprayed by hand with a pistol and a compressor. The painting material was some kind of white liquid. I remember I saw this process many times when I was a child. The knits were protected with paper.
Final color was always a bit darker than the original and finish a bit shiny at the beginning. ( in fact this was not for changing colour but for leather cleaning and care )
Cannot tell about the A2 but this was how it was done 35 years ago.
Regards
Joan

Interesting. That sounds like a spray on conditioner rather than a dye but I'll bet the process was similar.

 

[Bobby Peru]

I suspect this is one for @aswatland.

One of the few original A2’s I kept is a redyed goatskin version. Beautiful jacket. It’s missing a tag, but it has all the tell tale signs of a Perry Sportswear. I agree with you that the redyed jackets look killer.

 

[Sloan1874]

I'm very curious about the process. I remember reading somewhere that the jackets were just hung up on a hanger and sprayed by hand - can that be right? I wonder if the knits were taped over or covered in some way.

I think it depended who was doing the actual re-dying. If it was done in an air depot, it was pretty rough and ready with a good chance of the dying getting on to the zipper tapes etc. If it was sent back to a maker, the process was executed with a bit more care and professionalism. I'm not sure it necessarily involved spraying either - the dye could be painted on too. According to John Chapman, it was a three-step process: a red bottom coat was applied first, followed by a thin coat of seal-coloured dye, then a matte top coat. Over time, the top coats begin to wear away and you get a unique effect that's quite attractive.

 

[Sloan1874]

An original example: https://www.thefedoralounge.com/threads/mint-aero-a2-from-the-w535-ac-21996-contract.70723/

A Good Wear re-dye: https://www.vintageleatherjackets.org/attachments/image2-jpeg.9307/

 

[HPA Rep]

There is quite a lot of misinformation in the replies on this thread, with a fair amount of unsubstantiated information stated as fact.

1) I shall start with the color terminology, which I have discussed on this forum before. There was only one seal brown in the eyes of the Army, but postwar enthusiasts and manufacturers have adopted terms such as russet, dark seal brown, light seal brown, etc. The original Seal Brown would appear to be a lighter shade of brown with reddish hues; please note that the jackets from the 1930's all tend to be in this color group and surely these older jackets would have the greatest chance of being a match to what "Seal Brown" was intended to be due to more time being spent on getting details right on a contract with the luxury of the peacetime vs. the madness of a wartime crunch.

Terms of color distinction are good ideas, I think, but I'd suggest "dark brown" and "medium brown" for the darker shades, because an argument for darker browns being synonymous with Seal Brown simply does not hold up.

2) Re-dying became a common practice in the last 2 years of the war and immediately postwar. This work was performed at the Service Depots of the Air Service Command. I have seen no documentation that this work was ever performed by contractors that produced the A-2's nor any suggestion that it was. I would question why an A-2 contractor would be involved in this sort of work, as they only assembled the jackets. The leather contractors would make more sense for performing such work, but I have also seen nothing to indicate they were involved. It is possible that the re-dying concept may have been tested by either type of contractor, but in terms performing large amounts of this work, please show me the money. ;-)

3) The dye was applied by hand and was thin, runny stuff that did not cover well. It could be applied with a brush or a mitt of some form, but please show me the evidence that this work was sprayed on. If you look at examples of re-dyed A-2's, you clearly can see the brush/mitt strokes, drips, runs, and splatters, but I have never seen overspray as would be associated with a spray gun. Gary Eastman's A-2 book illustrates the effects of the re-dying very well on pp. 99-101.

4) The steps of the process were three: wipe garment down with acetone, apply dye as noted above, spray on clear lacquer (sheepskin only). The original process is photo reproduced from the original Technical Order 13-1-10 dated Oct. 16, 1943 found in C. G. Sweeting's COMBAT FLYING CLOTHING under Appendix D on pp. 124-125.

Re-dying was performed by men who were in a hurry to get a load of jackets, trousers, and other articles of flying clothing done and who would have preferred to be somewhere else. If you examine any of the re-dyed boots, trousers, caps, helmets, and/or jackets, it's very evident that this was just one dark coat of thin, runny dye applied with minimal care, where drips can be found on any or all of the fabric components (or fleece) and lines of demarcation are blatant inside the pocket and under the shoulder straps, as well as hangers in the neck showing the original dye and not receiving the new dye.

I also love the look of the re-dyed jackets (shearling and A-2), and getting a true understanding of how this work was carried out I hope is a concept supported by readers and members. Thank you.

 

[Seb Lucas]

That's very interesting, Charles. Thanks - it's good to know how it worked. So were they re-dyed manly to freshen up the look?

I wonder how hard it would be to do this yourself at home - what kind of dye would you use?

 

[Fanch]

Interesting thread and have often wondered the same thing myself. I suspect some overdye jobs were somewhat rough as the jackets involved were considered military gear rather than museum pieces as we now see them. I suspect few WW II A-2's were made with the care and attention to fine detail as those made by John Chapman.

 

[HPA Rep]

Interesting thread and have often wondered the same thing myself. I suspect some overdye jobs were somewhat rough as the jackets involved were considered military gear rather than museum pieces as we now see them. I suspect few WW II A-2's were made with the care and attention to fine detail as those made by John Chapman.

Pick any maker today selling commercially, and you will find that their jackets exceed the construction quality of wartime A-2's.

 

[HPA Rep]

That's very interesting, Charles. Thanks - it's good to know how it worked. So were they re-dyed manly to freshen up the look?

I wonder how hard it would be to do this yourself at home - what kind of dye would you use?

You are most welcome, Seb; I'm happy to share this info. Yes, as the T. O. states, this was a cosmetic procedure to create a more uniform appearance, with the repair work being to make the goods fully serviceable and to precede the dye work.

You could do this at home, but you'd need to experiment with dyes to get the right look, as well as make sure the leather was finished similarly to how the vintage leather was so that the dye actually adheres. I developed a dye and application process we used for Buzz Rickson's "Cooler King" A-2 of some years now gone, which worked really well, though it was wayyyyy too consumptive in time. If I could train someone to do this correctly, I'd consider offering it again, but that's unlikely. Time consumption is the main reason why ELC's version of this type IS ONLY RANDOMLY AVAILABLE; Gary tells me he does these himself.

 

[Sloan1874]

John at Good Wear offers to do jackets that are re-dyed. His Aero 21996 contracts made using this process look fantastic.

 

[HPA Rep]

John at Good Wear offers to do jackets that are re-dyed. His Aero 21996 contracts made using this process look fantastic.

If I am understanding what you are describing, then it's not a depot re-dye. Your intro to this topic mentions this look as common on Aero contracts: reddish undercoating beneath dark brown dye. This was performed by the original leather contractors before the leather was turned into an A-2, thus not a re-dyed A-2 from a Service Depot of the AAF Air Service Command that applied dye to the leather of existing A-2's. The hides referenced can be found on the 21996 and 15142 contracts. It is possible that, as these jackets saw wear and tear that they and also the lighter brown jackets of these two contracts were re-dyed in a depot, but that's not what I think you are describing. I have never been able to learn why this leather-contractor dye work was done, but it's a curious undertaking considering that leather was being accepted and purchased in various brown shades at the time.

I have seen John's Chapman's rendering of this leather in the form of a completed A-2 and it is indeed excellent. Anyone have photos to post here?

There could be other repro makers offering this leather finish. I know Buzz Rickson's have also offered this finish from time to time in what they call a rub-off finish and the look is quite good; this was on the first BR A-2's we offered in 2008.

 

[mattmiller1973]

Charles, I know this is an old thread, and I don’t see any BR jackets in a dark brown around these days — certainly not in the size 48 long that I’d need. But I will continue to watch your page in case anything like that ever turns up!