A Question for the Pilots of the Lounge

[MissS]

For any FL pilots (private, commercial or military), I'm interested in finding out if any of you completed astral navigation as part of your endorsement.

Of particular interest is anyone who did their initial training within the last 15 years. I'm trying to ascertain if this is a dying skill in this modern age of automated flying.

Thanks!

 

[miss_elise]

lol...astral navigation sounds a bit like you're having an OOBE (out of body experience)...

 

[CharlesB]

lol...astral navigation sounds a bit like you're having an OOBE (out of body experience)...

I misread that as oboe

 

[John Boyer]

For any FL pilots (private, commercial or military), I'm interested in finding out if any of you completed astral navigation as part of your endorsement.

Of particular interest is anyone who did their initial training within the last 15 years. I'm trying to ascertain if this is a dying skill in this modern age of automated flying.

Thanks!

I am currently a VFR rated pilot. I am working on my IFR. I do not know anything about 'astral navigation", I will, however, check with my instructor.

 

[warbird]

For any FL pilots (private, commercial or military), I'm interested in finding out if any of you completed astral navigation as part of your endorsement.

Of particular interest is anyone who did their initial training within the last 15 years. I'm trying to ascertain if this is a dying skill in this modern age of automated flying.

Thanks!

Well I didn't start any training in the last 15 years, but I can tell you this, it wasn't talked about 20+ years ago, so I highly doubt it is now. I wouldn't call it a dying skill, I'd call it a dead skill.

Maybe it had a use when they were flying mail planes in the 1920's, following fires in oil drums on the ground and judging their horizon by the use of a whiskey bottle and string, but outside of that there are thousands of better navigation aids in the last 70 years than stars. Maybe somebody will disagree with me, but i've flown all over the world and been in the bush as it were numerous times, flying very bare bones aircraft and never used stars. I suppose I could have, I am acquainted with the skill a bit from sailing, but never used it for flying. Frankly it would scare the beejeesus out of me to depend on me having to use it.

I know on some old aicraft you could find a window that gave access to the stars to theoretically provide emergency latitude. But, it was considered pretty sketchy at best and one would ceertainly not truly navigate by it.

 

[Copper]

Canada's universal Private Pilot flying text is called From the Ground Up.

Although my most current edition has dropped the Astral Navigation section, it was still included in my edition from around 1986 (when I was still too young to fly but desperate to learn), and my 1991 edition, when I first soloed.

Although Astral Nav was worthy of an instructional section, I was not taught it in ground school, nor was I tested on it.

Probably just as well, as my Piper Cherokee lacks a navigation dome!

 

[MissS]

Hmmm, very interesting, guys. I've just spoken to a few ex-Australian Airforce guys and they advise that it was a pretty tried and true technique used 30-40 years ago, back when we used to have navigators, but the pilots were also taught the technique.

The scenario they gave me was the old Hercules and flying over the Indian Ocean way back when. It took about 15 minutes to plot and get a relative position, and had to be reviewed every 30 minutes, so it must have been pretty hard work.

I know it's not part of a modern endorsement, however was just interested to know if it was a skill that was still passed on.

 

[Dixon Cannon]

I obtained my Private ticket in 1973 and there was no training in celestial navigation (shooting the stars) at that time. I have spoken with a B-52 crewman from that era who told me he did recieve celestial navigation as part of his training but even then it was an anachronism. In today's world of GPS it's even more so.

When I think back to what a Pan Am Clipper Navigator had to know and use during his career, I'm in awe. That was a time when education and skill were valuable assets and the human mind was one's greatest tool.

It would be interesting to get a rudimentary course in CN just to see how it all worked. I'm quite sure I would have flunked pitifully had it been a requirement for my flight training.

-dixon cannon

 

[Copper]

You've got me thinking now about Astral Navigation; I am going to have to find my old edition (I know I kept them somewhere...) and reread the section.

I remember being fascinated at learning it as it was so obviously dated and unworkable in the sort of flying that I was doing. Even though I learned in the infancy of GPS, there was LORAN and other Nav aids. I can see how it could be useful in the landmark-free remoteness of the coastal areas off Australia.

The diagrams in the text showing a navigator working his way to the back of what appeared to be a Beech 18 or C-45 and working his instrument under a tiny navigational dome were great and have stayed with me even if how to navigate an airplane by the stars never quite sunk in.

 

[MissS]

The guys were trying to give me a crash course on it this afternoon, but I didn't have the time to probe in detail, but hope to do so over the course of this next week, so I'll let you know what info they impart to me!

It sounds very complicated and convoluted - having to plot an equilateral triangle from 1 star, then another plot 15 minutes later, all compared to where you wanted to be....it certainly made my head spin and deepened my respect for the old navigators!

Dixon Cannon, from what my airforce gents tell me, they were certainly still using astral nav in the early 70's. Twas probably linked to our aircraft and areas we were flying to.

Copper, I've asked the gents to search for any old nav equipment they may still have lying around for me to look at, so if I come up trumps, I'll take some pictures and post.

 

[warbird]

I certainly think you could make an argument for say having the skill when your pilots mainly fly in areas where the is predominant cloudless sky or in aircraft that fly high enough to almost always fly above the cloud cover.

Certainly every navigator who flew even probably up until the 80's in 3 crew commercial aircraft or military had some rudimentary instruction in AN, but it has never been integral or even often remembered by most of our pilots. In talking to my father this morning, he said he never recalled using it though he may have or may have suggested it to his navigator flying over the Bermuda Triangle area when headings would act squirrelly.

For the most part though I just don't think in this country at least that it has been something pilots really thought about since the days of flying boats. It was always difficult and took too much time and attention away for a pilot, but some navigators, eh maybe they practiced it once in a while, they have time.

 

[John Boyer]

1981 Cherokee Dakota

Somewhat off topic, but here is my 1981 Cherokee Dakota equiped with a Garmin 430.

 

[rumblefish]

MissS, I remember replying to this thread. It's what I know of celestial navigation.

http://www.thefedoralounge.com/showthread.php?t=28365&highlight=navigation

 

[MissS]

Ooh, I missed that thread rumblefish - thank you! I'll read up on it a bit more before I chat to the airforce guys again, to make me look incredibily intelligent!

Is this a technique you still use, or do sailors generally rely on GPS these days?

 

[Copper]

Somewhat off topic, but here is my 1981 Cherokee Dakota equiped with a Garmin 430.

That is a gorgeous plane, and I deeply envy your Garmin 430. I got to play with one in a rented 172 one time and very much enjoyed it.

Mine is rather less spectacular:

Here she is with another lady in red who has captivated my attention; fortunately they don't seem to be jealous of one another!

And MissS, thank you! I would love to see some of those photos if you can find them!

 

[donCarlos]

I asked one friend of mine, who has recently completed his type rating for Boeing 757 and no astral navigation techniques are taught through the whole ATPL. However, there are some old fashioned things they still have to know, like the Q codes, which were commonly used in telegraphy, like QRK (How do you receive me?) or very well known QNH for pressure settings.

 

[MissS]

All these lovely shiney red things - I have toy envy! Huh, isn't it funny how dukes are always thought of in the feminine sense?

Oh, and back on subject, looks like we'll be looking to our sea faring friends to keep the astral nav skills alive, but it seems even there its a dying art.

 

[staggerwing]

I started flying in 1974, and received no training in celestial navigation, although I always thought it would be cool to learn. That said, did you here about the fellow who, wanting to learn to "shoot the stars" went to REI. He asked the sales clerk if they sold sextants. She replied, "Mister, we sell all kinds of tents. What you do in them is your business."

(For those of you in Sydney, REI is a big outdoor equipment retailer in the US.)

 

[rumblefish]

Is this a technique you still use, or do sailors generally rely on GPS these days?

GPS and still, LORAN. Except for a few new captains and crews the folks I speak with and fish with still refer to locations using LORAN numbers. It was supposed to have phased out years ago. But these folks, who know their charts and the offshore fishing grounds, have the LORAN numbers burned into memory. A few of the productive fishing spots, instead of having names like; Atlantis, The Dip, or Jennie's Horns, are called by their chart #s like; 100 square, or 40 fathoms on the 600 line. Having said that, GPS is a lot easier to use and I prefer it.

When traveling the driver is always looking ahead of the boat and glancing to nav aids. At night you tend to check RADAR a bit more, but following GPS or LORAN and your spirit compass for the "course to steer" leads to a zig-zaggy trail. You can steer a much straighter course if you find something in the sky, and align it to a point on your boat then make corrections as time passes and the sky "moves" (unless your using the North Star which is always north, off by a degree). The use of the sky this way is just to get around when you know your course to steer. To find a point in the ocean without electronics you need a accurate watch, sextant, and a schedule of the celestial bodies (and the know how to calculate). Blah blah blah...sorry for the long-winded answer

 

[Smithy]

I'm pretty certain my father didn't do any during his training with the RNZAF just after the war.

Obviously I wasn't scheduled to when I started my PPL (didn't finish as I came to Norway the first time).

Dying art in terms of aviation now I would say.