A Painless Classical Education

[carebear]

I know you're mostly joking Martini, but there is value in having someone ask pointed questions to make you examine the basis and consistency of your stated beliefs and opinions. Which can indeed make you want to poison the questioner, set beliefs die hard.

While there's nothing wrong with a little inconsistency, one should be aware of it and have a rationale to explain it. Too many people walk around filled with unexamined and unchallenged opinions (often just parroted from the last thing they read or heard) who then try to impose those baseless opinions on others, whether through discussion or through civic action.

Raw knowledge without context or assimilation into a complete worldview is useless, you have to know the who, what, where, when and why of the facts in order to apply them more generally.

To read the Iliad is to read a good story with some interesting things to say about interpersonal relations. To read it in the context of modern scholarship about the Eastern Med and Aegean in the Heroic Age is to gain an understanding of some of the roots of later Greek developments in politics and reason.

 

[Paisley]

Examining your beliefs is good and necessary. Having to rationally explain whatever you believe isn't realistic. Being unable to explain a belief does not make it wrong. I've known brillant people who couldn't explain rational facts (and nitwits who talked a good game). Even Einstein held radical beliefs on light that he couldn't explain to the satisfaction of the scientific community for years. In science, the burden of proof is on the person with the new theory.

I do think it's good for everyone to learn how to tell reason from bunk; but from what I read, many colleges are now indoctrinating students rather than teaching them to think independently and assess arguments.

 

[carebear]

Not "having to" Paisley, being able to, to yourself.

And it isn't necessarily some kind of deductive "proof" either, merely an rational and valid explanation of why you hold what you hold.

Comparing, say, the difficulty of explaining a scientific theory like "how perception of time is affected as objects approach "c" " to even fellow scientists, to the difficulty of a reasonably intelligent person merely explaining why they believe "pure democracy is the best form of government" to another reasonably intelligent person is not a valid comparison.

Anyway, that's what a classical education is all about. Being able to reason and explain what you know and believe. That's why logic and rhetoric are necessary, not only do you learn how to think, you learn how to effectively express your thoughts to others.

It's what allows you to accurately generalize to larger issues from specific instances and conversely, accurately apply general philosophical or political principles to specific cases.

Anyway, that's my considered opinion.

 

[mysterygal]

Paisley,

You can have your cake and eat it too! I disagree with those that say a classical education requires "sufferring". It does not. And by definition, a classical education is not an in depth education at all. It is a survey education designed to make one "worldly".



I wholeheartedly agree! I love learning about the broad spectrum of culture , but I find that most of the time I like taking little pieces of it that I find intriguing and spend quite a bit of time learning all I can about it. It's a snowball effect, one subject tends to lead to another.
There really hasn't been just one source where I could say has benefited me in this...I have come across some fantastic books (but a majority of them I find don't go as indepth as I would prefer), movies-documentaries, and people.
I've always thought learning should be a pleasure, one to dive in and indulge in.

 

[carebear]

Not "classical" per se, but definitely conducive to a survey mindset -

I really like lately for history the books that take a particular subject and put it in its historical context with background. Usually a bit more "fun" to read as well. They have so much stuff touched on that if something catches your eye you can chase it down in more depth later.

"Close to Shore" is about the 1917 shark attacks on the Jersey shore, but goes into the changes in society that led to the then new popularity of ocean and coed bathing. The polio epidemic that drove those who were able away from the pools of the city to the "healthy" shore. The politics of the day, with WWI looming and German U-Boats on the coasts. The leading society and celebrity figures that all seemed to swing through the area that summer.

Oh, and you learn a bunch about sharks.

"Devil in the White City" Want a book on how to set up a World's Fair with budget and time constraints, while dealing with local, national and international politics? Want to learn about Chicago (and by extension other contemporaneous metropoli) in all its splendor and squalor at the turn of the century (1893)? Architecture? Oh yeah, one of the most prolific serial killers in our nation's history?

"Thunderstruck", "A History of the World in 5 Glasses", "Salt" The list is getting longer.

 

[Paisley]

Paisley,

You can have your cake and eat it too! I disagree with those that say a classical education requires "sufferring". It does not. And by definition, a classical education is not an in depth education at all. It is a survey education designed to make one "worldly".

Fortunately, thanks to modern technology, brought about engineers such as yourself, the resources are available to provide a classical education to you and the world, and not necessarily a shallow one, as many will opine. There are many companies with books on tape/CD for learning the classic literature, great philosophers, world history, art history, languages, etc. Communication and travel are very affordable these days, and the world is at our fingertips and just a short drive to the airport.

My undergraduate education was based on the Renaissance Man concept, which included an engineering education. However, I find the resources available to us today to be of much more value, then discussing the plight of Pangloss during a classroom session.

Cheers,

M8

Thanks for your kind note. Maybe it's the engineer in me, but I cannot help thinking that if there is an easier way to learn something, why not learn it that way? (If there were merit in having a really hard time learning something, a coworker of mine would be the best word processor this side of the Rockies. As it is, she's going to be looking for a new job soon. Despite studying her notes and materials long and hard, she can't write a letter by herself.)

P.S. The Socratic method is nonsense. There's a reason that Socrates was murdered. He was a punk who only asked questions in an antagonistic manner. He never wrote anything either. If it wasn't for Plato, Socrates would not even be a historical footnote. So there!

Sounds like as much fun as a sharp stick in the eye for everyone involved.

 

[Martinis at 8]

I know you're mostly joking Martini, but there is value in having someone ask pointed questions to make you examine the basis and consistency of your stated beliefs and opinions. Which can indeed make you want to poison the questioner, set beliefs die hard.

While there's nothing wrong with a little inconsistency, one should be aware of it and have a rationale to explain it. Too many people walk around filled with unexamined and unchallenged opinions (often just parroted from the last thing they read or heard) who then try to impose those baseless opinions on others, whether through discussion or through civic action.

Raw knowledge without context or assimilation into a complete worldview is useless, you have to know the who, what, where, when and why of the facts in order to apply them more generally.

To read the Iliad is to read a good story with some interesting things to say about interpersonal relations. To read it in the context of modern scholarship about the Eastern Med and Aegean in the Heroic Age is to gain an understanding of some of the roots of later Greek developments in politics and reason.

Ah yes! This is a good discussion which is why I am really liking this place. Of course I am joking about Socrates. And yes, beliefs must be examined and questioned, especially in this day of all the Wikipedia experts. However, I would much rather have a candid discussion about the merits of Pangloss's plight and auto da fe in Candide with you over at that bar at the Captiain Cook hotel, as an adult, then have some professor berate me in the classroom with Socrates' method

In any case, it's a great time to be alive and have all of these resources available to us.

Cheers,

M8

 

[carebear]

.oO(mental note - reread Candide)

Definitely Socrates would have done better to have a few more "beers and friendly conversation" than "insulting incisiveness and hemlock".

 

[Harp]

The Socratic Method, like the proper use of the bayonet, is a lost art.

 

[carebear]

The Socratic Method, like the proper use of the bayonet, is a lost art.

It's the finding the proper forum for practice that hinders both.

 

[WH1]

The Socratic Method, like the proper use of the bayonet, is a lost art.

Correct application of both might cure some of the talking heads we seem to be cursed with on the "news" channels.

Welcome back Harp, I thought you were on a LRRP somewhere?

 

[Harp]

Thanks, W; lurpin' days are long past, just busy but schedule and ubiquitech allow an occasional visit.

 

[Rosie]

I’d like to further my knowledge on a few subjects I never studied much. However, I don’t believe in the idea that “the more you put into it, the more you get out of it.” Therefore, I’d like to study these subjects in a painless and easy way and would like some recommendations on materials (fiction and non-fiction books, movies, documentaries, etc.) about these subjects:

American and World History
Art
Music
Literature
Very basic Latin

Feel free to recommend others you think desirable.

Why no science? I have a mechanical engineering degree and studied math, physics, inorganic chemistry and, of course, engineering.

If you are kind enough to make recommendations, please keep in mind that I’ll be looking at these materials on the bus or at home after a day’s work. I’m not interested in going back to school or living abroad. I do like to read and watch things that have a medium to fast pace.

Thanks!

I haven't read everyone's posts because, I'll readily admit that I'm just that lazy this morning but,

I would get good books to give yourself a rudimentary idea of each subject then hang out with people who know a lot about these subjects. Talk about them, really immerse yourself in it.

A few years ago, I became very interested in traditional African religions and did lots of reading, research, etc. Late last year, I met about 5 people who actually practice African traditional religion and my knowledge on the subject has grown greatly. Of course there are still things that I need to learn and understand but, just having people to speak with has made a HUGE difference on my quest of knowledge.

 

[rcinlv]

Cool Thread!

I really enjoyed filing through this line this morning. Interesting thoughts, fun ideas. So I'll take a shot at it:

For a brief survey of history (American), try Don't Know Much About History by Kenneth Davis. The first book in a series of Don't Know Much About... books, all of them excellent. Just finished the most recent, Don't Know Much About Mythology. I recommend the entire series.

For your brief (and somewhat campy) survey of Philosophy, try Sohpie's World. I can't remember the name of the author. Yes, it is written as a novel for middle schoolers, it's over simplified, and it's very Eurocentric, but it surveys from Ancient Greek through modern thinkers.

There is a book I've been working through- An Intellectual Devotional. Meant to be read as a single page per day, it covers history, science, religion, philosophy, music, visual arts. Obviously, at one page it cannot give any meaningful depth of knowledge. But it has led me to many fun investigations and discussions.

Good Luck,

RC

 

[Paisley]

I've been reading The Birth of the Modern: World Society 1815-1830 by Paul Johnson. I was pleasantly surprised to find it a page-turner.

I've read only about one-fourth of it, but what is surprising is how similar our time is to the early 19th century.

• A Congress in Vienna was trying to keep nations at peace.
• Musicians could attain celebrity status. (They had been lower than valets before.)
• The illegitimacy rate was well into double digits in some places.
• The divorce rate was fairly high and the birth rate was falling (in Europe).
• Upper class men started taking their sartorial cues from the lower classes (i.e., they started wearing trousers instead of breeches and stockings).
• Romanticism (i.e., feeling) was replacing reason. Not completely, but that was the Zietgeist.
• Ballroom style dancing (the waltz) was all the rage. The dancing couples were much more physically connected than they were before when doing the minuet. Not everyone approved.
• America wasn't producing very much in the way of culture.

I am wondering if there is some cycle or pattern. America had just ended the War of 1812; Europe was seeing the last of Napoleon. Do Americans tend to go into a cultural slump after a major war? Does reason take a back seat to feeling after such a period? Is there generally an increase in license? Or are these things not related, but just coindicental?

 

[Harp]

Honour nourishes the arts, and all are stimulated
to the prosecution of studies by glory.

Turley

 

[Harp]

What I'm doing is really just to satisfy my own desires. I have an education (albeit a more scientific one) and just wish to expand on it in the areas I didn't study. I mean, it's better than marathon TV watching, right? And I'm sure my reading and museum trips will bring me to places and people I wouldn't have met otherwise.

Everyone has been very kind to take the time to make recommendations. I'll refer back to this thread for a long time to come.

A belated recommend include Boethius' The Consolation of Philosophy; and Barzun's From Dawn to Decadence.

Like many great books The Consolation was birthed inside prison while Boethius awaited execution under Theodoric. His epistle miraculously survived and provides poignancy as foundation for truthful exam of self.
The late Jacques Barzun's excellent Dawn surveys the last five hundred years with wit and wisdom.