A Painless Classical Education

[Paisley]

I’d like to further my knowledge on a few subjects I never studied much. However, I don’t believe in the idea that “the more you put into it, the more you get out of it.” Therefore, I’d like to study these subjects in a painless and easy way and would like some recommendations on materials (fiction and non-fiction books, movies, documentaries, etc.) about these subjects:

American and World History
Art
Music
Literature
Very basic Latin

Feel free to recommend others you think desirable.

Why no science? I have a mechanical engineering degree and studied math, physics, inorganic chemistry and, of course, engineering.

If you are kind enough to make recommendations, please keep in mind that I’ll be looking at these materials on the bus or at home after a day’s work. I’m not interested in going back to school or living abroad. I do like to read and watch things that have a medium to fast pace.

Thanks!

 

[Novella]

For American history Eric Foner's Give Me Liberty! is an excellent book. Lots of pictures (I love pictures). Lots of information too, but not too heavy and tedious to read. If there's a more specific time period or particular issues in American history you're interested in I could probably give more recommendations.

Not general art, but A World History of Photography by Naomi Rosenblum is a good book if you have any interest in learning about photography.

 

[The Reno Kid]

In my opinion, what you're asking for is not possible. The primary characteristic of a classical education is rigor. That's what made it valuable. That being said, if you want just a taste of Latin, find a copy of Learning Latin by Peter Jones. I don't know if it;s still in print but you could always find a copy on abe.com or one of the other sites that deal in secondhand books. BTW, he also did a book on ancient greek.

 

[LizzieMaine]

One Golden-Era approach to this very question was the "Harvard Classics -- Dr. Eliot's Five Foot Shelf of Books". It was a compendium of essential historical and literary writings compiled by Dr. Charles W. Eliot, a former president of Harvard University, which sought to bring together in one collection the essential foundation works of a solid classical education. The set came with a study guide laying out a 15-minute a day reading schedule that would guide you thru the entire series over time. The study guide is available online here: http://www.mensetmanus.net/inspiration/fifteen_minutes_a_day/


The Five Foot Shelf was relentlessly advertised in the popular press of the time, and in an era when only a small fraction of the American public would ever attend college, the idea of a do-it-yourself education was very appealing.

These sets are still very easy to find in second-hand bookstores, and are reasonably inexpensive -- well worth seeking out!

 

[Paisley]

For American history Eric Foner's Give Me Liberty! is an excellent book. Lots of pictures (I love pictures). Lots of information too, but not too heavy and tedious to read. If there's a more specific time period or particular issues in American history you're interested in I could probably give more recommendations.

Not general art, but A World History of Photography by Naomi Rosenblum is a good book if you have any interest in learning about photography.

This makes me think of the PBS production "Liberty!" Even my mother liked that--and she hated history in school.

I used to be a photographer, but in the military. The cocktail parties and such that I shot were dull, dull, dull. I imagine Rosenblum's book would be far more interesting.

 

[Paisley]

In my opinion, what you're asking for is not possible. The primary characteristic of a classical education is rigor. That's what made it valuable. That being said, if you want just a taste of Latin, find a copy of Learning Latin by Peter Jones. I don't know if it;s still in print but you could always find a copy on abe.com or one of the other sites that deal in secondhand books. BTW, he also did a book on ancient greek.

Well, studying mechanical engineering was pretty rigorous. Unfortunately, the degree hasn't been financially valuable.

I'll see if the public library has a copy of Learning Latin.

 

[Paisley]

One Golden-Era approach to this very question was the "Harvard Classics -- Dr. Eliot's Five Foot Shelf of Books". It was a compendium of essential historical and literary writings compiled by Dr. Charles W. Eliot, a former president of Harvard University, which sought to bring together in one collection the essential foundation works of a solid classical education. The set came with a study guide laying out a 15-minute a day reading schedule that would guide you thru the entire series over time. The study guide is available online here: http://www.mensetmanus.net/inspiration/fifteen_minutes_a_day/


The Five Foot Shelf was relentlessly advertised in the popular press of the time, and in an era when only a small fraction of the American public would ever attend college, the idea of a do-it-yourself education was very appealing.

These sets are still very easy to find in second-hand bookstores, and are reasonably inexpensive -- well worth seeking out!

The material sounds like what I was looking for, and I really like the idea of 15 minutes per day. I'll look for this.

Thank you all for your recommendations.

 

[Orgetorix]

I’d like to further my knowledge on a few subjects I never studied much. However, I don’t believe in the idea that “the more you put into it, the more you get out of it.” Therefore, I’d like to study these subjects in a painless and easy way and would like some recommendations on materials (fiction and non-fiction books, movies, documentaries, etc.) about these subjects:

American and World History
Art
Music
Literature
Very basic Latin

Feel free to recommend others you think desirable.

Why no science? I have a mechanical engineering degree and studied math, physics, inorganic chemistry and, of course, engineering.

If you are kind enough to make recommendations, please keep in mind that I’ll be looking at these materials on the bus or at home after a day’s work. I’m not interested in going back to school or living abroad. I do like to read and watch things that have a medium to fast pace.

Thanks!

First, I have to say I agree that there's really no "easy" way to get a classical education. Unless you read deeply, think deeply, and really interact with the sources on a more-than-superficial level, you won't have gotten a classical education. You'll have gotten a poor imitation. But you can take it slowly, one book at a time, and if you're interested in the material it will be enjoyable, not painful.

Here are some thoughts:

Check out The Well-Educated Mind: A Guide to the Classical Education You Never Had, by Susan Wise Bauer.

Paul Johnson is one of the best historians around today; his A History of the American People is a fantastic survey of U.S. history. He has a history of art as well that I haven't read, but has gotten good reviews. He has written other histories as well, including one of the Renaissance and one on the 20th century (Modern Times).

Wheelock's Latin is what I used in college, and it served me well. That I've forgotten most of my Latin already is my fault, not the text's.

No classical education would be complete without rhetoric, the art of persuasion. I used Corbett and Connors' text in college, but there may be better books on the subject out there.

Also, don't forget philosophy. Louis Pojman's books are good surveys.

Edit: I just remembered that Susan Wise Bauer has also just released the first volume (of four) in a History of the World. My wife says it's very good.

 

[warbird]

I agree with Orgetorix, it simply doesn't come easy. The real problem is a lack of discussion. Classical educations highly lean on the art of rhetoric and Socratic dialogue as a way to develop logic and reason skills. These are the eventual hopeful outcomes from a classical education. To use that knowledge, not for facts itself but for the practical application of purpose.

But to add another book to the list where you can get a wonderful synopsis of major events in human history and human thinking I highly recommend, The History of Knowledge by Charles van Doren.

 

[Fletch]

First, I have to say I agree that there's really no "easy" way to get a classical education. Unless you read deeply, think deeply, and really interact with the sources on a more-than-superficial level, you won't have gotten a classical education. You'll have gotten a poor imitation. But you can take it slowly, one book at a time, and if you're interested in the material it will be enjoyable, not painful.

Well, traditionally, there are Standards to be met, which includes reading, understanding, and mastering a fair raft of stuff you are not interested in, at least not until you get well into it. There's also the fading but still well entrenched tradition of Socratic dialogue – and whatever its value in developing critical thinking (which is surely very great), it was originally intended to demoralize and break down the student and, in so doing, reinforce the authority of teacher, canon and tradition.

My point here is that a truly classical education is often designed with a certain amount of gratuitous anguish built in, in the name of Character Building. The unstated premise is that if you can't swallow at least a moderate amount of bs, you won't be much use to society.

 

[warbird]

Well, traditionally, there are Standards to be met, which includes reading, understanding, and mastering a fair raft of stuff you are not interested in, at least not until you get well into it. There's also the fading but still well entrenched tradition of Socratic dialogue – and whatever its value in developing critical thinking (which is surely very great), it was originally intended to demoralize and break down the student and, in so doing, reinforce the authority of teacher, canon and tradition.

My point here is that a truly classical education is often designed with a certain amount of gratuitous anguish built in, in the name of Character Building. The unstated premise is that if you can't submit at least somewhat to unreasonable authority, you won't be much use to society.

I would disagree with this. Socratic dialogue is often used without these tenets as part of its make up. It does always challenge when used properly, but does not have to debase. I am a product of a great books education. My experience was not like described above and many others are not as well.

The two places where it still exists as explained above are in law and medical schools. But there are also choices in each of those where the Socratic method is used, and not at all in a demeaning way.

 

[Paisley]

Again, I think that my mechanical engineering program was pretty rigorous and character building. As one of my professors said, "Concepts are fine, but if you can't get the right answer, you're no use to anyone." My classmates and I had our noses in our books while many other students were playing volleyball or whatever. None of us had straight A's.

I've been thinking about why I'm interested in reading material that has some meat in it. I think it's because I simply enjoy reading something challenging. (Since my sister died a year and a half ago, I haven't had an appetite for anything but fluff. [huh] ) I have limited time in this life, so I'd like to read things that have truths, not just entertainment.

I'm not looking to become an expert in philosophy or history, and I won't kid myself that I have anything more than a layman's knowledge.

 

[manton]

Wheelock is definitely tops for Latin.

"Classical" is so broad it can mean almost anything. In the strict sense, it means the Greek and Roman "classics." If that's what you are really interested in, then a few books do tower over the others.

The Iliad and the Odyssey are absolutely foundational. Then move on to the tragic poets: Aeschylus, Sophocles, and Euripides. The surviving plays are surprsingly few.

Then Aristophanes. You may not want to read them all, but at least read The Clouds.

The move on to Plato. At the very least, read the Republic, Euthyphro, Apology, Crito, and Phaedo. The Republic is like a grand tour of everything. The others take you through Socrates' accusal, trial, and death. They are also short.

Aristotle is vast and many find him boring. My favoriites are the Politics and the Ethics. The natural science is totally useless. The Metaphysics is profound, but about as close to impossible to understand as anything.

For Greek and Roman history, read Plutarch. Great stuff, little mini-bios of everyone important. Shakespeare based all his ancient plays on this. Thucydidies is, in my opinion, one of the greatest books of all time, but some people find it tough sledding. Herodotus is more fun, but unreliable and meandering. My favorite classical author is Xenophon; hardly anyone pays any attention to him any more.

I would say, skip the rest of the Greeks unless you just get really into them.

The Romans are tougher. If you want history, read Livy, then Suetonius, then Tacitus. Tacitus is the most fun, but he picks up the story well after the beginning; Livy begins at the beginning. Philosophy, Cicero. Comedy, Plautus. I think, in all honesty, the only Roman book a non-geek really needs to read is the Aeneid.

If you want to learn the basics of classical music, get Listen by Joe Kerman. Very clear and enjoyable. If you want a gossipy history, get Lives of the Great Composers by Schonberg.

 

[Fletch]

Again, I think that my mechanical engineering program was pretty rigorous and character building. As one of my professors said, "Concepts are fine, but if you can't get the right answer, you're no use to anyone."

This why engineers make better livings than liberal arts types (like me). Their accountability is clearer-cut, their results quantifiable. People will pay good money for that.

 

[Paisley]

This why engineers make better livings than liberal arts types (like me). Their accountability is clearer-cut, their results quantifiable. People will pay good money for that.

fftopic:

May have been true decades ago, but in the mid-90s, when I was a recent grad, engineering firms only wanted to employ people as temps when they needed them, often with no job security, no training, no vacation, no benefits. Now they wonder why so few young people want to go into engineering.

I've made more money in four years as word processor at a CPA firm than I made from engineering work over five years.

 

[Orgetorix]

For the Greeks and Romans that Manton mentioned, the Loeb Classical Library editions are great. They have the original (Greek or Latin) text on one page with the English translation in parallel on the facing page.

 

[WH1]

agreed on Plutarch, absolutely essential. Also Gibbons, Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire and Bulfinchs Mythology, Machiavellis, the Prince. American history, for the Civil War, I highly recommend anything by Bruce Catton or Shelby Foote.
I received my bachelors in history and the best advice I received from one of my professors, William Appleman Williams, was read both sides of the issue, develop the ability to support or attack them both and then look at your own values and beliefs to make your decision. That was what a "classical" education was supposed to do make you think.

 

[Paisley]

Paul Johnson is one of the best historians around today; his A History of the American People is a fantastic survey of U.S. history. He has a history of art as well that I haven't read, but has gotten good reviews. He has written other histories as well, including one of the Renaissance and one on the 20th century (Modern Times).

I just picked up The Birth of the Modern: World Society 1815-1830 by Paul Johnson at a used book store. I also got a book of opera librettos. I'll read the Johnson book on my bus commute and look up a libretto whenever I head an opera that I enjoy.

Discussion and challenge of subjects is a good thing, but I also think that considering whether the view that an author puts forth rings true to your own experiences in life has merit. I think that is one advantage to reading serious works later in life.

Thanks to everyone for your recommendations.

 

[mwelch8404]

Some of my favourites for history:

US: Westward Expansion

Western US: Men to Match My Mountains by Irving Stone

World: The Discoverers By Daniel J. Boorstin.

 

[dhermann1]

If you take the advice of what a lot of people are suggesting, you will be like Gilbert and Sullivan's Modern Major General: "My military knowledge, tho I'm plucky and adventurey, has only been brought down to the beginning of the century". Maybe subscribing to a few arts oriented magazines might be good. I think Atlantic Monthly is still the best (as well as oldest) magazine in the country, and gives you a perspective on the old as well as the new. Rent Kenneth Clarke's great mini series "Civilisation". Find some good classical music station on the web, if you don't have one near you. (I listen to WQXR, here in New York, but there are hundreds worldwide.) Go ahead and dabble, and when you find something that tickles your fancy, dive in. If you fall in love with it, you will enjoy digging in deeply. If it gives you pleasure, it's probably good for you. Go to the Boulder, Colorado Chautauqua!