A Message From Aero Leather USA

[HoosierDaddy]

No one is lynching anyone, you are fanning flames that don't need to be fanned. You are doing it either just to see where it will go for pure amusement or because you're not quite grasping what people are saying, either way you should've let it die 3 pages back.

Well..it might help..if you'd take your own advice. Personally..I can't see where your theories..insults.. then several attempts to explain that you are being misunderstood has helped anyone...but then perhaps that wasn't the intention in the first place. [huh]

 

[Aerojoe]

No one is lynching anyone, you are fanning flames that don't need to be fanned. You are doing it either just to see where it will go for pure amusement or because you're not quite grasping what people are saying, either way you should've let it die 3 pages back.

ye,ye,whatever,me silly skimo no understand

 

[Jack Burton]

I talked to Mark this past Monday and he sounded as if everything was gonna be taken care of. He told me he was transferring funds into his paypal account to make refunds. That takes about 3 days just to get money transferred from the bank to paypal, so I can see a small delay there. I opted for a USPS money order which he said he would send out by the end of the week and he'd shoot me an email letting me know to expect it.

Come today (Friday) I had no email about a refund nor a USPS money order in hand. He's not answering his phone nor returning my calls. Looking back now, the fact that I had to call him to begin with this past Monday is a red flag. I would have never known about this situation if I was not a Flounger. I wanted to give him the benefit of the doubt but I'm fairly certain now he's jerking me around. He's left me no choice but to send a dispute out to my credit card company.

Aside from people who developed drug habits, I can't say I've ever seen someone with such a great business reputation make a complete 180 and disappoint this many people.

 

[tater]

Best of luck to those seeking recourse. Kudos to Aero for making what seems to be a good effort to reconcile problems.

Regarding the use of the Aero name in the US and Japan, I don't think it even requires malfeasance by the owner of those outfits for customers to be confused. In the absence of a huge banner across every Aero USA page saying "we have no relationship to Aero Scotland" I would have assumed they were the same company, and the "USA" merely to let American customers know they had "local" shipping, repair, or for some tax purpose, etc. Really, I'm surprised anyone would have thought they were NOT the same company (unless they had such a large notice proclaiming the disconnect).

 

[ButteMT61]

What we have here is a combination of lots of things.
1) Something gone awry with AEROUSA.
2) Failure to communicate this to customers.
3) Casual business practices based on old-school gentlemen's agreements.
4) Upset customers.
5) Upset Aero employees and family members.
6) Different cultures and languages.
7) P*ssed off customers.
8) Lots of holes in the overall picture, leading to speculation.
9) Friends of all involved wondering what the hell went wrong.

All of this adds up to a real mess. I'm not taking anything personally. I didn't do anything or anyone wrong. I am trying to keep level-headed until the facts are known. I really appreciate the nicer things that were said here. I'm certainly capable of making people mad - be it usually unintentional. This is a fantastic place, and we do need to work together to get through this mess intact. No hard feelings. Lord knows I have a life of my own rotten dramas - not the least of which is the battle with my home insurance company to fix the damage done by last November's windstorms. So yeah, let's all relax. Keep the thread positive. And maybe a cold beer or two is in order

 

[HoosierDaddy]

Hoosier, your comments were also one the important voices on the Longe that helped me in my Jacket addiction. Thanks!

Ha!..Well..I appreciate that! One thing I won't do is exaggerate the facts..even though I may be excited about a certain jacket...or company..for that matter. Members have posted problems..and even dislikes about Aero jackets. We all have our preferances..and they may not always jive. Who am I to say that someone else must like what I do..? All I can do is state my experiences..and post pics...then really that only tells my story.
HD

 

[dr.velociraptor]

Well..it might help..if you'd take your own advice. Personally..I can't see where your theories..insults.. then several attempts to explain that you are being misunderstood has helped anyone...but then perhaps that wasn't the intention in the first place. [huh]

Yeah whatever keep fanning those flames, that's what you want isn't it? I can't see where your "Mark's a standup guy and he didn't rip anyone off" (when he clearly did) is helping anyone either.

You know what I wrote, get over it already, it clearly wasn't insulting, we both know it but you don't have the ability to simply back off and relax. If you want to keep it going and get the thread locked (which based on your friendship with Mark Moye may be your aim), no problem I'll engage.

 

[IXL]

I talked to Mark this past Monday and he sounded as if everything was gonna be taken care of. He told me he was transferring funds into his paypal account to make refunds. That takes about 3 days just to get money transferred from the bank to paypal, so I can see a small delay there. I opted for a USPS money order which he said he would send out by the end of the week and he'd shoot me an email letting me know to expect it.

Come today (Friday) I had no email about a refund nor a USPS money order in hand. He's not answering his phone nor returning my calls. Looking back now, the fact that I had to call him to begin with this past Monday is a red flag. I would have never known about this situation if I was not a Flounger. I wanted to give him the benefit of the doubt but I'm fairly certain now he's jerking me around. He's left me no choice but to send a dispute out to my credit card company.

Aside from people who developed drug habits, I can't say I've ever seen someone with such a great business reputation make a complete 180 and disappoint this many people.

Sir, it only requires a mere one or two hours to transfer bank funds to Paypal.

 

[Jack Burton]

Sir, it only requires a mere one or two hours to transfer bank funds to Paypal.

After using Paypal for 11 years now, that's never been my experience. It's no different than any other ACH transfer, e.g. funding an online trading account. Furthermore:

How long does it take to add funds to PayPal from a bank account?


It takes 3 to 5 business days to add funds to your PayPal account. You can view the expected clearing date of your add funds transaction under the Status heading. Here's how:

* Log in to your PayPal account.
* Click History
* Click the Details link for the transaction in question.

 

[IXL]

After using Paypal for 11 years now, that's never been my experience. It's no different than any other ACH transfer, e.g. funding an online trading account. Furthermore:

Wow. I didn't realize they stated this; it has always taken us only one or two hours, and the same for constant ACH transfers. But I'm not about to argue with Paypals officially stated terms, and I stand corrected.
I am SSSSOOOOO glad I didn't call you an idiot or something!

 

[oneterrifichog]

We should have been more diligent? On the contrary, we acted THE MOMENT Mark Moye exceeded his pre-arranged credit limit. You may or may not be aware of standard wholesale practice where customers who own shops and resell goods bought from a supplier.

Standard trade terms are 30 days credit with a limit agreed as to the maximum amount of credit.

Mark was allowed a temporary extension to his limit at Christmas, this too is quite common at peak times of business when more stock is need for shops who are very busy and cash flow can get tight awaiting end users to pay for their goods and while Banks are so loathe to help the little guy.

This extension was reduced by Mark by 25% over the next few weeks leaving him still over his credit limit but we aren't talking a great deal of money here, we have accounts ten times the size of Mark Moye's. So when he was told he wouldn't receive any more goods until his account was brought back into the black he said he couldn't pay and would have to close his business.

We respected his decision as we would any other store. He also indicated there were a few of his customers with jackets orders outstanding. We said we'd do what we could to help, we'd write off the money he owed us which wasn't that large an amount anyway in the grand scheme of things, as we now know it, as if he couldn't pay the only other thing was to sue him and it would probably cost us more than what he owed. Also, like many of you, we liked him and didn't want to kick him when he was down. We then said we would see what we could do about the outstanding orders once we had a list from him. We never knew the customers name when an order came, after all it was none of our business who he sold the jacket on to, we were only ever sent a list of jackets, under Mark Moye’s name.

When we saw the list of what we were told was the full extent of his order book we were shocked, it was far worse than anyone could have imagined especially as most orders he'd taken were paid in full to him in advance. At that point we started contacting customers through the limited info passed on by Donna Moye. We also advertised for customers of Mark's that we might not have known about to get in touch with the factory via the news section of our website, Facebook and The Fedora Lounge.

Mark Moye made it very clear in the opening post of this thread that he was a "Stand Alone" individual trader. If he felt there was any way he could have passed the buck to the factory, why on Earth would he do that? If he was an agent or represented the Aero factory in any way whatsoever only a total fool would take the blame himself, surely?

He was never a rep or agent of Aero Leather Clothing Ltd, he was never paid a single penny by the factory, if he claimed to be such it was without our knowledge or permission. Like other stores that sell Aero worldwide but are not anything to do with the factory other than as customers we did allow him to use an abbreviation of the registered trade name. He paid nothing for this, some companies such as him and Aero Japan for instance are given use of the name for free so long as they buy from us, that doesn't even make them a franchise, nobody gets to use the full name whether they pay us or not. Other firms like Real McCoys pay us a commission for the use of our brand name in their products. This does not make Aero responsible for anyone who falls out with Aero Japan or Real McCoy or any other shop that stocks our products.

We can't delve into other companies financial affairs beyond taking up trade references before opening an account. Unless a company starts to exceed their credit or fall behind with the 30 day payment rule we have no reason to suspect any problems.

Until now we’ve had no time, or reason to spend time monitoring discussing on the fedora lounge, it was only upon discovering the current situation that we were made aware of customers discussing the differences in their wait times, and this is when we discovered Mark had customers waiting up to two years for jackets.

Whoa Holly:

Mark has been an Agent of Aero all the way back to 2002. I remember him mentioning this on many of the post he put on your (Ken's Forum) "20th Century" something or another. Mark was integral to this Forum as was Ken. "Paddy", "HD"y'all were on it as was I. Mark was the U.S. Agent for Aero Leather period. So what I am saying is quit dumping on Mark. It is both of your problem. I think you need to work this out with the buyers and be stand up "international corporate citizens". Help Mark with whatever issues he has and move on. Ken, ask yourself how many jackets has Mark contributed to Aero's growth?
I know of 3 for me, 1 for my wife and a very special one for my daughter. My daughter Nancy even wrote a note to your seamstress thanking her for her craftswomanship! Ann wrote her back too! So let's face it you are all in this together. "Do the right thing" help these guys out and work out the details with Mark over time. Your reputation demands it! And so does Mark.

By the way for all you dudes who think I got some kinda special turn time from Mark.Wrong....switched to LW a few years ago..... Made In The USA!

Sorry for the Southern Accent Guys....

Wilbur

 

[Davo]

I can't remember how I found out (it's been so long since I placed my order), but I always knew that Aero USA was an independent company. I knew that my contract was with Aero USA and I had no expectation of any help from Aero Scotland. I therefore thank them for their advice and I hope to do business with them in future.

There must be some truth in the thought that Mark was targeting newbie orderers or customers not known to these forums. I mean just look at the first two pages of this thread.....glowing reviews and best wishes from the regulars. It's only later that the new names appear and start revealing the truth.

I don't know how or why it started. But it's such a shame. Not only was I looking forward to a fantastic jacket but I was actually pleased to be supporting two small businesses that I thought deserved my custom. So I'm not only angry about being ripped off, I'm also quite disappointed that this guy has betrayed those who trusted him (we all knew that we would have no eBay or PayPall protection).

 

[HoosierDaddy]

Whoa Holly:

Mark has been an Agent of Aero all the way back to 2002. I remember him mentioning this on many of the post he put on your (Ken's Forum) "20th Century" something or another. Mark was integral to this Forum as was Ken. "Paddy", "HD"y'all were on it as was I. Mark was the U.S. Agent for Aero Leather period. So what I am saying is quit dumping on Mark. It is both of your problem. I think you need to work this out with the buyers and be stand up "international corporate citizens". Help Mark with whatever issues he has and move on. Ken, ask yourself how many jackets has Mark contributed to Aero's growth?
I know of 3 for me, 1 for my wife and a very special one for my daughter. My daughter Nancy even wrote a note to your seamstress thanking her for her craftswomanship! Ann wrote her back too! So let's face it you are all in this together. "Do the right thing" help these guys out and work out the details with Mark over time. Your reputation demands it! And so does Mark.

By the way for all you dudes who think I got some kinda special turn time from Mark.Wrong....switched to LW a few years ago..... Made In The USA!

Sorry for the Southern Accent Guys....Bullshit no I'm not.

Wilbur

Close Wilbur...
Mark was the U.S. Representative of Aero Clothing Co.(at least that's what it says on his old business card). He always made a distinction from being an Aero Rep...in comparison to an Aero Agent on the Classic20th forum. He said that he didn't want to be beholden to a Company as an agent...but would rather be a Rep with his own seperate business. Seems these titles do mean different things on paper..or contractually...although they may appear the same to us. Several years later...it seems that Aero Scotland was rearranging things and insisted he become an agent of Aero. That didn't last long..as he informed me that he went back to his Rep status. What may seem the same..or unrecognizable to us had a very different meaning to Mark. Seemed 'Agent' meant attached directly to the mother company...while 'Representative' meant an independent entity representing the mother company.
That's the thing...we just don't know all the facts..but we do know that things should be made right. The AeroUSA customers fulfilled their end of the bargain..and so would have Aero Scotland..on their end....but in the middle was unfortunately the problem. How serious?..we don't know yet.
HD

 

[consult]

Enough defense of Mark

To all those defending Mark;

I just returned from 3 active duty tours in November 2011 and ordered my first Aero from Mark in January 2012, a treat to myself, fully paid at $924.00. I was told by Mark that the Aero factory was no longer backlogged and would have my jacket ready by March 2012. Notice my surprise when I received notice of his closing and the Aero company e-mail that my jacket order had not been placed. Fraud is fraud. If you want to defend Mark please send me $924.00 and I will jump on your bandwagon. Until then he has acted dishonestly and does not deserve the kind words offered here. I understand someone having personnel issues and business issues but blatant dishonesty does not have an excuse…

 

[oneterrifichog]

I can't remember how I found out (it's been so long since I placed my order), but I always knew that Aero USA was an independent company. I knew that my contract was with Aero USA and I had no expectation of any help from Aero Scotland. I therefore thank them for their advice and I hope to do business with them in

There must be some truth in the thought that Mark was targeting newbie orderers or customers not known to these forums. I mean just look at the first two pages of this thread.....glowing reviews and best wishes from the regulars. It's only later that the new names appear and start revealing the truth.

I don't know how or why it started. But it's such a shame. Not only was I looking forward to a fantastic jacket but I was actually pleased to be supporting two small businesses that I thought deserved my custom. So I'm not only angry about being ripped off, I'm also quite disappointed that this guy has betrayed those who trusted him (we all knew that we would have no eBay or PayPall protection).

Hi Davo:

Man I feel for you. But I have to say since this thing came down it has just blown me away. Obviously since I have not dealt with Aero USA for the last few years I have no dog in the hunt, it just seems odd to me that Aero Scotland has been letting out info a little bit at a time about Mark Moye that just does not jibe with the guy that I met about 5 years ago and did business with. Especially since Mark has done so much to promote Aero both on Ebay and on the forum Aero used to have set up. Now granted any salesman would do this no matter his intentions good or bad. But I have to say I have met the man and I have to say I did not get a bad vibe. It was several years ago but the dude was good people. I do not know what happened but I do not think it was one sided. Aero Scotland and Aero USA share this together no matter what they say. Let's face it we all saw the EBay ads and the Photobucket photos. Hell they we're on the 20th Century Forum too! I am just saying this relationship goes back too far for Aero Scotland to claim pure innocence of having Mark Moye as a U.S. agent.

 

[jlanderson]

To all those defending Mark;

I just returned from 3 active duty tours in November 2011 and ordered my first Aero from Mark in January 2012, a treat to myself, fully paid at $924.00. I was told by Mark that the Aero factory was no longer backlogged and would have my jacket ready by March 2012. Notice my surprise when I received notice of his closing and the Aero company e-mail that my jacket order had not been placed. Fraud is fraud. If you want to defend Mark please send me $924.00 and I will jump on your bandwagon. Until then he has acted dishonestly and does not deserve the kind words offered here. I understand someone having personnel issues and business issues but blatant dishonesty does not have an excuse…

Hear, hear.

I just returned from 3 active duty tours in November 2011 ...

And thank you.

 

[ButteMT61]

@ consult. You're mixing up defending Mark vs us being shocked at the situation knowing what we know of him. Those are two totally different things. If you had a friend that was accused of something, would you just abandon him/her without knowing the whole story? As a soldier, I'd hope and bet not.
I thank you for your service to our country. I feel badly that this is your welcome home. That however doesn't change the fact that many would like to see the whole story before crucifying someone.
There are also business techinicalities that we are not privvy to. As you can tell from this thread, it's complex. Being on the **** end of the stick means you're p*ssed. And rightly so. Not being there means I will reserve judgement. I hope it gets resolved for you and others, as well as Aero.

 

[consult]

ButteMT61,
I fully understand your point, you can be a nice guy and do something stupid, been there done that more times than I care to recount. I also understand the sh** that can fly when you are least expecting it. I am just Piss** that I may lose money…but in the end it is only money and there are worse things to lose…

 

[ButteMT61]

ButteMT61,I fully understand your point, you can be a nice guy and do something stupid, been there done that more times than I care to recount. I also understand the sh** that can fly when you are least expecting it. I am just Piss** that I may lose money…but in the end it is only money and there are worse things to lose…

Well, I'm hoping that doesn't happen. I think it's incumbent upon one of the entities involved to make good here. Had I the money, I'd pay the bill for everyone to get this over with.

 

[oneterrifichog]

To all those defending Mark;

I just returned from 3 active duty tours in November 2011 and ordered my first Aero from Mark in January 2012, a treat to myself, fully paid at $924.00. I was told by Mark that the Aero factory was no longer backlogged and would have my jacket ready by March 2012. Notice my surprise when I received notice of his closing and the Aero company e-mail that my jacket order had not been placed. Fraud is fraud. If you want to defend Mark please send me $924.00 and I will jump on your bandwagon. Until then he has acted dishonestly and does not deserve the kind words offered here. I understand someone having personnel issues and business issues but blatant dishonesty does not have an excuse…

Hey Man, you need to contact Aero Scotland. I was giving my personal opinion of Mark Moye and stand by it.

Also a Vet!